From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from emea01-am1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am1on0071.outbound.protection.outlook.com [157.56.112.71]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "MSIT Machine Auth CA 2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BF9F21F615 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2015 03:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: lists.bufferbloat.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:183f:da2b::717c:e11c] (2001:470:183f:da2b::717c:e11c) by VI1PR07MB0944.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (25.161.110.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.184.17; Sat, 6 Jun 2015 10:04:44 +0000 Message-ID: <5572C5AE.7040300@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 11:04:30 +0100 From: Kevin Darbyshire-Bryant User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jb References: <7D4DDC3F-9233-4E07-B59B-AA1368CA9D4E@gmail.com> <5571B334.7050607@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> <5571DA4E.5060809@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> <5571DC01.70301@k.gg> <5571E1A7.9050403@k.gg> <5571E322.1010403@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> <5571E36E.2050607@k.gg> <5572B325.70307@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040609070407020306000901" X-Originating-IP: [2001:470:183f:da2b::717c:e11c] X-ClientProxiedBy: SN1PR06CA0042.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (25.163.69.52) To VI1PR07MB0944.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (25.161.110.149) X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:VI1PR07MB0944; X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:; X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(5005006)(520003)(3002001); SRVR:VI1PR07MB0944; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VI1PR07MB0944; X-Forefront-PRVS: 05991796DF X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(6009001)(24454002)(51704005)(479174004)(62966003)(42186005)(19580395003)(77156002)(87976001)(568964001)(5001920100001)(86362001)(189998001)(54356999)(46102003)(65816999)(16236675004)(19580405001)(5890100001)(74482002)(92566002)(59896002)(33656002)(65956001)(122386002)(83506001)(76176999)(40100003)(50986999)(87266999)(80316001)(4001350100001)(5001960100002)(512874002)(110136002)(2950100001)(36756003)(231993002)(3826002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:VI1PR07MB0944; H:[IPv6:2001:470:183f:da2b::717c:e11c]; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; X-OriginatorOrg: darbyshire-bryant.me.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jun 2015 10:04:44.3688 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB0944 Cc: bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] Bloat goes away, but with ~25% speed loss? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2015 10:05:18 -0000 --------------ms040609070407020306000901 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050401070807040808090704" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050401070807040808090704 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/06/2015 10:30, jb wrote: > My 2c - I wasn't planning on creating pages listing ISPs in order of > decreasing buffer bloat score. Good :-) > > And for speeds of course in the USA and most markets there are ranges > of products each with their own speed and price attached, so ranking > ISPs by any simple averaging of speeds is pointless as well. Absolutely. I despair in this country because there's a regular 'ISP A is faster than ISP B' graph/battle...and it really makes no sense. > > However I think there is value in map-based speed results especially > ones that pin down average speeds and technologies to streets and > towns, and if there is any value at all in grading a single test for > bufferbloat (or latency to major cities, or jitter, or packet loss ..) > then there is also value in combining those statistics. If you're in a geographical/single supplier situation then yes. In the UK it simply doesn't work like that, any area, 'any' supplier. > > And even just pure speeds, one can statistically work out products and > create interesting comparisons, both spot, and changes over time. Even > if, at least in the US, there is no way to switch because your local > cable company is your local cable company. Our speeds are fundamentally controlled by how close to the cabinet/exchange you are, not really ISP controlled. There are 2 bandings on VDSL though, 80/20, 40/10. ADSL is a bit more 'best effort' Incidentally VDSL is advertised as a 'fibre' service in this country! You can get real fibre, but really it's Fibre(rare to the home), Cable(Virgin Media), VDSL(effectively BT), ADSL(BT&others) > > There is also value in showing just how far a few ISPs are ahead of > everyone.=20 > > For example, in the USA, any speed ranking would put google fiber far > out in front, and Verizon FIOS far in front for upload speed. Why hide > that information? There may be a few ISPs that really get on top of > buffer bloat as well, and highlighting those, if they exist, makes > sense to me. This can be done without doing a top 100 chart full of > nonsense. :-) No top 100 nonsense yay :-) I *am* very interested to see up/down bufferbloat split out by ISP/delivery technology though. And I am very positive about the dslreports bloat test, it's really very good and it's great to see people making the issue of bufferbloat more measurable and more mainstream. Apologies if I've sounded less than appreciative. Kevin --------------050401070807040808090704 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 06/06/2015 10:30, jb wrote:
My 2c - I wasn't planning on creating pages listin= g ISPs in order of decreasing buffer bloat score.
Good :-)

And for speeds of course in the USA and most markets there are ranges of products each with their own speed and price attached, so ranking ISPs by any simple averaging of speeds is pointless as well.
Absolutely.=C2=A0 I despair in this country because there's a regular= 'ISP A is faster than ISP B' graph/battle...and it really makes no sense.

However I think there is value in map-based speed results especially ones that pin down average speeds and technologies to streets and towns, and if there is any value at all in grading a single test for bufferbloat (or latency to major cities, or jitter, or packet loss ..) then there is also value in combining those statistics.
If you're in a geographical/single supplier situation then yes.=C2=A0= In the UK it simply doesn't work like that, any area, 'any' supplier.

And even just pure speeds, one can statistically work out products and create interesting comparisons, both spot, and changes over time. Even if, at least in the US, there is no way to switch because your local cable company is your local cable company.
Our speeds are fundamentally controlled by how close to the cabinet/exchange you are, not really ISP controlled.=C2=A0 There are = 2 bandings on VDSL though, 80/20, 40/10.=C2=A0 ADSL is a bit more 'best= effort'=C2=A0=C2=A0 Incidentally VDSL is advertised as a 'fibre' serv= ice in this country!=C2=A0 You can get real fibre, but really it's Fibre(rar= e to the home), Cable(Virgin Media), VDSL(effectively BT), ADSL(BT&others)

There is also value in showing just how far a few ISPs are ahead of everyone.=C2=A0

For example, in the USA, any speed ranking would put google fiber far out in front, and Verizon FIOS far in front for upload speed. Why hide that information? There may be a few ISPs that really get on top of buffer bloat as well, and highlighting those, if they exist, makes sense to me. This can be done without doing a top 100 chart full of nonsense.
:-)=C2=A0 No top 100 nonsense yay :-)

I *am* very interested to see up/down bufferbloat split out by ISP/delivery technology though.=C2=A0 And I am very positive about th= e dslreports bloat test, it's really very good and it's great to see people making the issue of bufferbloat more measurable and more mainstream.=C2=A0 Apologies if I've sounded less than appreciative.
Kevin
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