From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from nm17-vm6.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm17-vm6.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [216.109.115.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4852021F784 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 06:31:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s2048; t=1446388284; bh=Cp9d8cb7LkFscQXsqTNpx4d64yQt7r1ThMD7/F+bjdI=; h=Reply-To:Subject:References:To:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=XpmQviWjbpM8YBpgargdedehQPpXnjgxnFwlEAM3Ssqo4iGhMiEliVrhDOhJZxuMm1JBgMDGEUcrL/QcjpdOagSRxHqwmK4LhSfWf++GSfQl7FTD+pKIW7KDFCuDufjnaXXlo9ebrBz4U3Bw4jM61INXTJ7AFHKt2P+YZlm9aJJmWYtNxODD4no35qfZcy2JS3ASLscPRXQuhmZCjQG0vVmFw85nqYPbg2HcKZg41cm4olX0u3Og7WNIOcxsIcUU8mini95T062/DHjhifb5+yVJFY2aGGhCmNV+NN7fMGCdpCJC9kknYV75rvGH10y0B1fc+WKtZv95K8EG9wnkiA== Received: from [66.196.81.163] by nm17.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2015 14:31:24 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.244] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2015 14:31:23 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp115.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2015 14:31:23 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 695247.91647.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: GUWaS6YVM1nO.Sd0Pg3aDbuFhPcwpM2uYcZoC1K23Sd4tYm VLK079H6ChUWObWLnKusMjneAqotklSDkCIAihxmbX1Ujz86GgMTjYslOraK Ye.G0v9F7kUuV9iGhOD92NEGOBgaTf46HfcCRZhn5ZRNHu3l.0g0.0SnXqC6 Rl2WgAwg2fb_H4vmIhauCnidVlTyAMLT.RBpM.w.a0T_zh2N0HOSfC3HK4u_ 7xPIFwuVe5NEm0jvOPcVNiVTEM_ALN72rqAEb62c75f7CvRV8o3bcPApGJot yacHhzf4tSCIZXWhXJqwVeFwzKeL6nePkOyPfhJl2yqg3z0bmgPr2_ZCQNrp g40r0T.0nQ_CEw9fyTP4UIhrufusvbh8K1G_BmBevpIL1HWJPnwsiErpCrYr o8_0BRlj9RHPxNUUPxH1BsqAr79AisNYZygSY2WcVco9hH5.CXspcSi2f4_V AMHFKbbsVyOeQ.NhUXqKkzkS6CO0yx0PSkJ5XBW_41sAJkTutZNjKYiCBBHl 7_aWxhTtzuWcj5t1WtTjPLzCgSpouzEzfFTt0CvosqOkZ1vgeKY_TB6ovc6v 8V9qVqht96zPvisSnIjpu X-Yahoo-SMTP: sltvjZWswBCRD.ElTuB1l9j6s9wRYPpuyTNWOE5oEg-- References: To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net From: David Collier-Brown Message-ID: <563621FF.2090402@rogers.com> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 09:30:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [Bloat] On an org and on joining the software patent non-aggression community X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: davecb@spamcop.net List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 14:31:47 -0000 It changes the process from "don't read any patents and hope you don't accidentally reinvent something" to "have access to a group of patents under a set of rules" As patents were defined as providing "how to" information in return for a commercial protection scheme, being able to read them is arguably a good thing for a development community. --dave [IANAL, I A public-policy wonk who used to work with lots of ALs typesetting caselaw] On 31/10/15 09:20 AM, Dave Taht wrote: > Over the last 5 years or so the open inventions network has grown by > leaps and bounds. > http://www.openinventionnetwork.com/community-of-licensees/ > > Here in the bufferbloat pits... instead of joining that, we worked > really hard to make sure codel went out into the public domain > unpatented - for anyone to use, and so far, so good on that.... > > But there are so many IP landmines ahead (and behind) that it makes > sense for at least CeroWrt/make-wifi-fast to now join with a group > like OIN for mutual defense against the trolls. I think. Maybe. > > Perhaps other groups like gargoyle or dd-wrt should also join, if they > have not already. > > In particular, lots of lots of chip producers have joined OIN of late, > and with probably lots of IP to share. To name just a few: Avago, > Cavium, Cadence, Cavium, DSP, Mellanox, Sequans, VIA, LG, CalAmp, etc. > > If anyone here has any comments, positive or negative to make about > oin, or this course of action, please discuss. I have no idea how > companies like the Cisco's of the world, view OINs efforts. > > i would not mind securing and then assigning to an oin, a hw patent or > two, myself. I think. A plaque on the wall would be nice, but I am > still wrapping my head around the implications of how oin relates to > hardware development.... > > ... > > In other news, actually making cerowrt and/or bufferbloat.net a functioning org > (non profit or for profit) is something on my mind - probably based in > europe (sweden or denmark). If anyone here would like to discuss that > (need a BOD, > articles of incorporation, etc), drop me a line off-list, and if > enough people are interested, we'll hash it out on some other list. > > ...Until now, I have generally taken care of paying all of cerowrt and > bufferbloat.net's misc bills, out of teeny little teklibre. All else > was provided by volunteers and orgs that cared enough to loan or > donate resources, which was pretty awesome. Total cash donations to > the whole five year effort from individuals was probably less than > about 15k, prior to the fcc letter fundraiser, which raised ~8k. > > (I shudder to think of what the real costs were....) > > As a non-org... > > We benefited hugely from isc.org's hosting in particular, but they are > now shutting down ( :( ) that, and google funded the openwrt build > system for a while (grant now expired), and I survived on somewhat > non-related contracts with comcast and google fiber and misc others > and am still paying the last bills for the now-shut-down yurtlab, and > maintaining the sole remaining machine in the google compute build > cluster, (which I would like to spin up more fully as we try to get > homenet and make-wifi-fast more widely tested) - and I'm based at the > uni of karlstad in sweden presently... > > So a ton of stuff has to move around... the dns servers and and web > servers have to move into the cloud soon... > > ...AND there may be a few grant opportunities arriving, that it would > be saner to A - have another/real org for, along with B - have better > housing against liabilities and new costs. > > Another option, instead of forming a new org, would be to join > something like software for the public interest... get icei.org more > alive... or.. nl.net. > > Nlnet.nl has the first small scale/small grant program/process (30k > typically) for sustaining engineering that I have dealt with that I > have ever seen work - it is fast and easy - as since august they been > helping pay for jon's work on cake! - and they've been a joy to work > with, as was iis before them. > > So A - forming an org, and B - getting protections for same - are > conflated, but what I mostly wanted to get out of my mailbox this > morning was the ideas behind OIN. > > Anyway, below is the conversation I'd had a few weeks back with one of > the members of oin that convinced me we should look them over, and > that maybe now would be a good time to get the house more in order. > > > Dave Täht > I just invested five years of my life to making wifi better. And, > now... the FCC wants to make my work, illegal for people to install. > https://www.gofundme.com/savewifi > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Valer Mischenko > Date: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:34 AM > Subject: Re: CeroWrt joining software patent non-aggression community > To: Dave Taht > > > Nice to hear from you Dave, > > That's because virtually all the innovation is the legal land-mine, > OIN exists and is doing it so well now. Not because we like patents, > just the opposite. But because we realise that the community needs to > show off its weapons to counteract aggression. A prayer cannot stop > aggression, but showing off your weapons can often prevent it. > > You may see it as building a fortress in a hostile woods full of > trolls. Everybody who does not want to be attacked and wants to be > protected is welcome. With a weapon or without, big or small, > commercial or non-profit. If one does not have a weapon, he brings a > brick with him (his voice against aggression) which entrenches the > walls of the fort. That's how we build it. > > Even if you are careful as hell in choosing the techniques, you cannot > prevent them attack you. If you are in the market, your are exposed. > That's a silly fact. With OIN we cannot change the world, but we try > to build a mutual protection around innovation. For trolls it seems > quite easy to threaten anyone - this is just righting a letter to an > innovating collective, claiming any patent infringement and wait for > fees. Defending yourself from them, on the other side, might be very > difficult. This asymmetry is widely exploited by trolls. But if you > have unconditional rights to use this ocean of intellectual property > of OIN members, they can barely do anything to you, as you are covered > to the best possible extent. Albeit not 100%, nobody can guarantee > that of course. > > OIN provides unprecedented IP coverage. There is no analogue. Hundreds > of thousand of patents around Linux plus additionally ~1000 patents of > the OIN which you get the right to use forever. In your open source or > proprietary products. And you keep this rights even if OIN or any or > all members do not exist anymore. For you undersign the license, not a > contract with OIN. The license may sound a bit legalistic, as it was > compiled as "one-size-fits-all", from multinational to SME to startup > to project, and to help the licensees to defend themselves as good as > possible. What the license in essence says is the following: > > (1) All members give the project Interactive a royalty-free license > for their Linux-related patents and patent applications. > > (2) In return the project gives a royalty-free license for any Linux > system patents or patent applications (if any) to other members. > > (3) OIN gives the project a royalty-free license for the large > portfolio of OIN's own defensive portfolio of patents and patent > applications (~1000) which includes many other fields of open source > next to Linux, like cloud, PHP, eCommerce, biometrics, apps building, > embedded, etc. > > That's it in fact. You only share your Linux related patents with the > rest of the community, if you have any. If not, that's OK too, you do > not have to contribute anything in kind either. > > This might be a no brainer when discussing this with your mates. If > necessary we can set up a conf call and talk about this together with > other team members. > > Let me know if I can help with anything. > > Best regards, Valer. > > > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >> yes, I have thought about it. when cerowrt started you were a lot >> smaller than this. >> >> on the other hand, we worked really hard to make codel patent-free in >> the first place, as we wanted a total non-agression pact on it, AND we >> wanted people to be able to reuse the code in binary only distros, >> etc. I also have some trust issues. >> >> >> That said, yes, we'll join, after I discuss with the other >> participants in the make-wifi-fast project. That portion of the field >> is a legal land-mine, and while I have been careful to only use >> techniques for which I believe sufficient prior art exists to >> invalidate any patents we might cross, it would be nice to have a >> higher scale of protection for the work. >> >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Valer Mischenko >> wrote: >>> Hi Dave, >>> >>> My name is Valer. I am from Open Invention Network. We help protect Open >>> Source and Linux-related technology from patent tension. Our goal is to >>> build a non-aggression “standard of behavior” to protect the future of Linux >>> and Open Source. OIN was created with the support of Red Hat, IBM, Philips, >>> NEC, Sony and Novell to foster a safe software patent environment for >>> producers and users of Linux. Ever since we have expanded to lot of more of >>> open source covering now 2335 packages. >>> >>> Today we have almost 1800 participants who have stepped forward to support >>> patent non-aggression through our community, ranging from OpenWrt to Ubuntu >>> to Liferay to Mirantis to NGiNX to KDE to Mozilla to Python. >>> >>> CeroWrt, as many of our members, is an active contributor to the Linux >>> kernel. Therefore we want to invite your project too to join our software >>> patent non-aggression pact. >>> >>> Our community is free to join. The only thing we want is a pledge that >>> CeroWrt would never use patents aggressively against other participants in >>> the broader definition of the Linux System. Of course it never will, but it >>> can also be very useful for the users of the code and services of yours when >>> they see the way to protect themselves from aggression through you taking >>> part of our community. >>> >>> By joining OIN you will not only help building a no-fly-zone around Linux >>> and open source, it is pragmatic to secure your rights to OIN's and >>> participants' intellectual property assets as part of a comprehensive risk >>> mitigation strategy, as you will obtain free, unrestricted worldwide license >>> to all hundreds of thousands of Linux related patents of the OIN members. >>> Plus around 1000 very basic OIN owned patents addressing various open source >>> technologies like cloud, PHP, eCommerce, biometrics, apps building, >>> embedded, etc. You will get it all for free and forever, with the only >>> obligation in return - not to attack other members around the Linux System. >>> >>> It is an excellent opportunity for CeroWrt to position itself effectively >>> with regards to Linux and broader open source technology. You would be >>> joining the community consisting not only of the hardest proponents of open >>> source technology, but also patent-centric companies such as Fujitsu, Check >>> Point, Vodafone, LG and HTC in perceiving tremendous benefit from engagement >>> and understand the importance of open innovation. >>> >>> You may be interested in some credentials and in getting more context about >>> our work. Here is an endorsement from Jim Zemlin, Executive Director of the >>> Linux Foundation: >>> http://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-media/blogs/browse/2009/09/protecting-linux-microsoft-yes-microsoft-got-caught >>> >>> Here from Eben Moglen, Chairman of the Software Freedom Law Center: >>> http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/now/organizations/OIN >>> >>> >>> This is all about building a community intended to get the software patent >>> aggression out of this world, with the idea behind: when everybody pledges >>> peace, there will be no wars. We are passionate supporters of open >>> innovation. I hope we will be able to welcome CeroWrt to our non-aggression >>> community. Every single voice helps us counteract patent aggression and >>> build on a more collaborative future. >>> >>> Attached is a very short overview of OIN + FAQs, but I am happy to answer >>> any questions and to explain in more detail what we do. >>> >>> Can you discuss this with the team and let me know what you guys think? May >>> you decide positively there is a possibility to sign in online: >>> >>> http://www.openinventionnetwork.com/joining-oin/license-agreement/ >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Valer Mischenko, >>> Open Invention Network >>> >>> www.openinventionnetwork.com >> >> >> -- >> Dave Täht >> Do you want faster, better, wifi? https://www.patreon.com/dtaht > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain