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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d8eed9b80acffb3afdb113168bb8b117; Sat, 22 Oct 2022 13:11:55 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------jvrUfLuFwVxsTr06rDgOh0Yt" Message-ID: <5913d36b-b957-28e2-ed6a-2bca0ff4d8e7@rogers.com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 09:11:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.2.2 Content-Language: en-US To: David Lang Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <80605c63a44d367a1cb0222f5c0012e5@swift.generated> <94f7f5f2-8130-0d7c-63b1-11da1bc956fc@rogers.com> <95955sq2-s027-0583-0qpr-qr0342351745@ynat.uz> From: David Collier-Brown In-Reply-To: <95955sq2-s027-0583-0qpr-qr0342351745@ynat.uz> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20754 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Subject: Re: [Bloat] Fwd: Broadband Bias X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 13:11:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------jvrUfLuFwVxsTr06rDgOh0Yt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, I'd tend to flatten my prices unless I could show end-user customers a really easy-to-detect improvement from the high-speed offerings. My across-the-road neighbor was talked into upgrading by Bell Canada to a higher-priced package, and ended up in a 'spirited discussion" about whether they were /obtaining money from him upon a false and fraudulent pretense/ (;-)) --dave On 10/22/22 09:02, David Lang wrote: > long distance phone plans used to be tiered as well, nobody misses > those days. > > eliminating tiers could just mean that people are getting the best > service available in their area (the car analogy they are trying to > use breaks down because you can't get Porsche service in a location > with Chevy infrastructure) > > IMHO, flattening tiers is good as it gives the ISPs more incentive to > use the tools that we've developed here to prevent the traffic from > one individual from interefering with the traffic for another, making > life better for everyone. > > David Lang > > >  On Sat, 22 Oct 2022, David Collier-Brown via Bloat wrote: > >> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 08:56:14 -0400 >> From: David Collier-Brown via Bloat >> Reply-To: David Collier-Brown >> To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> Subject: [Bloat] Fwd: Broadband Bias >> >> Here's an interesting "rantlet" on inequity in price and service by >> big ISPs, which of course makes me wonder >> >> * if end-users fixing bloat is enough to mitigate lack of IS investment >> * if the markup's research team should be talking to the speed-test >>   sites to collect actual-performance and observed bandwidth data >> >> >> --dave >> >> reference:https://themarkup.org/show-your-work/2022/10/19/how-we-uncovered-disparities-in-internet-deals >> >> >> >> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >> Subject:     Broadband Bias >> Date:     Sat, 22 Oct 2022 12:02:07 +0000 >> From:     Julia Angwin >> To: davecb@spamcop.net >> >> >> >> Broadband Bias >> Poorer and less White neighborhoods get slower speeds >> Hello World >> Hello World >> Dispatches from our founder >> >> Hello World >> >> >> This Week >> Broadband Bias >> >> Hello, friends, >> Imagine shopping for a car and being told that every car on the lot >> is being offered for the same price, but you don’t get to choose >> which car you’ll get. The dealership decides if you walk out with a >> Porsche or a Chevy. >> That’s how some internet pricing in the U.S. works. Most home >> internet plans are offered at a flat base rate, ranging from $40 to >> $60 a month, but what you get for that price varies widely, according >> to a new Markup investigation >> that >> was published this week. >> Reporters Leon Yin and Aaron Sankin analyzed more than 800,000 >> broadband plans >> offered >> across the U.S. from AT&T, Verizon, EarthLink, and CenturyLink, and >> found that the speeds they offered varied from more than 200 megabits >> per second (Mbps) in some neighborhoods to below 25 Mbps in others. >> To put that in simple terms: 200 megabits per second is the >> recommended minimum speed for a household that wants to participate >> in multiple concurrent Zoom calls without interruption. Anything >> below 25 Mbps is not even considered broadband by the Federal >> Communications Commission (FCC). >> Calculated by price per megabit, that means customers are paying >> hugely different prices for the same service. For example, >> CenturyLink offered consumers rates that ranged from 25 cents to  >> $100 per Mbps—which is 400 times greater. >> Chart: Providers offer different speeds for the same price. >> >> And guess which neighborhoods generally got the worst speeds? >> Lower-income, historically redlined areas that were less White. >> In 92 percent of cities in our investigation where broadband speeds >> varied, lower-income neighborhoods disproportionately received worse >> deals. In 66 percent of cities, people of color disproportionately >> received worse deals. And in 100 percent of cities where data was >> available, historically redlined neighborhoods received worse deals. >> Map: In most cities, poorer neighborhoods were offered worse internet >> plans more often. >> >> The amazing thing is that the speed disparities are probably even >> worse than what we found. We calculated these numbers based on the >> speeds that the companies /advertised/on their websites, not the >> speeds that were actually delivered. And as anyone who uses the >> internet knows, speeds are often quite different from what is >> advertised >> —and >> usually not in a good way. >> The telecom companies defended their practices. Mark Molzen, a >> spokesperson for CenturyLink’s parent company Lumen, said, “We do not >> engage in discriminatory practices like redlining and find the >> accusation offensive.” >> AT&T spokesperson Jim Greer said that The Markup’s analysis had >> ignored the company’s low-cost access offerings and participation in >> the FCC’s Affordable Connectivity Plan, which provides a subsidy for >> household Internet bills. “Any suggestion that we discriminate in >> providing internet access is blatantly wrong,” he said. >> Verizon spokesperson Rich Young referred inquiries to the industry >> group USTelecom, which said that internet providers can have good >> reasons to charge the same price for slower service. “Operating and >> maintaining legacy technologies can be more expensive, especially as >> legacy network components are discontinued by equipment >> manufacturers,” said USTelecom senior vice president Marie Johnson. >> The findings come at a time when U.S. regulators are looking into >> broadband equity. The FCC is currently drafting rules >> “to >> promote equal access to broadband across the country, regardless of >> income level, ethnicity, race, religion, or national origin.” >> Broadband pricing wasn’t always this way. Companies used to charge >> different prices for different speeds, in what were called “tiers.” >> But in recent years, they have moved toward a single price in what >> the National Digital Inclusion Alliance called in a 2018 report “tier >> flattening >> .” >> Unlike buying a car, however, it’s hard for broadband customers to >> know that they are getting a Chevy and not a Porsche when they pay >> that single, tier-flattened price. >> To buy broadband, you must enter your address into one of the >> telecoms’ websites to see the price, speed, and availability. Very >> few people are likely to enter other addresses into the site to >> compare speeds that their neighbors are getting—and even if they do, >> they aren’t likely to be able to convince the company to lower their >> rate. >> This lack of transparency means that the companies have been able to >> hide the stark disparities from public view. It took Leon and Aaron >> months of work to scrape all the prices from company websites, then >> match them with Census records to analyze which neighborhoods were >> getting which prices. >> It’s hard work, but it’s the important work that journalists must do >> to make these hidden disparities visible to the public. >> As always, thanks for reading. >> Best, >> Julia Angwin >> The Markup >> /(Additional Hello World research by Eve Zelickson.)/ >> >> https://mrkp-static-production.themarkup.org/uploads/2021/11/support_woman_16-9-1280x720.jpg >> >> Support The Markup >> Your donations power our award-winning reporting and our tools. >> Together we can do more. Give now. >> Donate Here >> >> This email doesn’t track you when you open it or click on any links. >> To learn more read our Privacy Policy . >> In order to unsubscribe, click here >> . >> If you were forwarded this newsletter and you like it, you can >> subscribe here . >> The Markup - PO Box 1103, New York, New York, 10159, United States of >> America >> --------------jvrUfLuFwVxsTr06rDgOh0Yt Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Yes, I'd tend to flatten my prices unless I could show end-user customers a really easy-to-detect improvement from the high-speed offerings.

My across-the-road neighbor was talked into upgrading by Bell Canada to a higher-priced package, and ended up in a 'spirited discussion" about whether they were obtaining money from him upon a false and fraudulent pretense (;-))

--dave

On 10/22/22 09:02, David Lang wrote:
long distance phone plans used to be tiered as well, nobody misses those days.

eliminating tiers could just mean that people are getting the best service available in their area (the car analogy they are trying to use breaks down because you can't get Porsche service in a location with Chevy infrastructure)

IMHO, flattening tiers is good as it gives the ISPs more incentive to use the tools that we've developed here to prevent the traffic from one individual from interefering with the traffic for another, making life better for everyone.

David Lang


 On Sat, 22 Oct 2022, David Collier-Brown via Bloat wrote:

Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 08:56:14 -0400
From: David Collier-Brown via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Reply-To: David Collier-Brown <davec-b@rogers.com>
To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: [Bloat] Fwd: Broadband Bias

Here's an interesting "rantlet" on inequity in price and service by big ISPs, which of course makes me wonder

* if end-users fixing bloat is enough to mitigate lack of IS investment
* if the markup's research team should be talking to the speed-test
  sites to collect actual-performance and observed bandwidth data


--dave

reference:https://themarkup.org/show-your-work/2022/10/19/how-we-uncovered-disparities-in-internet-deals


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject:     Broadband Bias
Date:     Sat, 22 Oct 2022 12:02:07 +0000
From:     Julia Angwin <newsletter@themarkup.org>
To:     davecb@spamcop.net



Broadband Bias
Poorer and less White neighborhoods get slower speeds
Hello World <https://themarkup.org/>
Hello World
Dispatches from our founder

Hello World


This Week
Broadband Bias

Hello, friends,
Imagine shopping for a car and being told that every car on the lot is being offered for the same price, but you don’t get to choose which car you’ll get. The dealership decides if you walk out with a Porsche or a Chevy.
That’s how some internet pricing in the U.S. works. Most home internet plans are offered at a flat base rate, ranging from $40 to $60 a month, but what you get for that price varies widely, according to a new Markup investigation <https://themarkup.org/still-loading/2022/10/19/dollars-to-megabits-you-may-be-paying-400-times-as-much-as-your-neighbor-for-internet-service>that was published this week.
Reporters Leon Yin and Aaron Sankin analyzed more than 800,000 broadband plans <https://themarkup.org/show-your-work/2022/10/19/how-we-uncovered-disparities-in-internet-deals>offered across the U.S. from AT&T, Verizon, EarthLink, and CenturyLink, and found that the speeds they offered varied from more than 200 megabits per second (Mbps) in some neighborhoods to below 25 Mbps in others.
To put that in simple terms: 200 megabits per second is the recommended minimum speed for a household that wants to participate in multiple concurrent Zoom calls without interruption. Anything below 25 Mbps is not even considered broadband by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC).
Calculated by price per megabit, that means customers are paying hugely different prices for the same service. For example, CenturyLink offered consumers rates that ranged from 25 cents to  $100 per Mbps—which is 400 times greater.
Chart: Providers offer different speeds for the same price.

And guess which neighborhoods generally got the worst speeds? Lower-income, historically redlined areas that were less White.
In 92 percent of cities in our investigation where broadband speeds varied, lower-income neighborhoods disproportionately received worse deals. In 66 percent of cities, people of color disproportionately received worse deals. And in 100 percent of cities where data was available, historically redlined neighborhoods received worse deals.
Map: In most cities, poorer neighborhoods were offered worse internet plans more often.

The amazing thing is that the speed disparities are probably even worse than what we found. We calculated these numbers based on the speeds that the companies /advertised/on their websites, not the speeds that were actually delivered. And as anyone who uses the internet knows, speeds are often quite different from what is advertised <https://pcrd.purdue.edu/the-real-digital-divide-advertised-vs-actual-internet-speeds/>—and usually not in a good way.
The telecom companies defended their practices. Mark Molzen, a spokesperson for CenturyLink’s parent company Lumen, said, “We do not engage in discriminatory practices like redlining and find the accusation offensive.”
AT&T spokesperson Jim Greer said that The Markup’s analysis had ignored the company’s low-cost access offerings and participation in the FCC’s Affordable Connectivity Plan, which provides a subsidy for household Internet bills. “Any suggestion that we discriminate in providing internet access is blatantly wrong,” he said.
Verizon spokesperson Rich Young referred inquiries to the industry group USTelecom, which said that internet providers can have good reasons to charge the same price for slower service. “Operating and maintaining legacy technologies can be more expensive, especially as legacy network components are discontinued by equipment manufacturers,” said USTelecom senior vice president Marie Johnson.
The findings come at a time when U.S. regulators are looking into broadband equity. The FCC is currently drafting rules <https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-initiates-inquiry-preventing-digital-discrimination>“to promote equal access to broadband across the country, regardless of income level, ethnicity, race, religion, or national origin.”
Broadband pricing wasn’t always this way. Companies used to charge different prices for different speeds, in what were called “tiers.” But in recent years, they have moved toward a single price in what the National Digital Inclusion Alliance called in a 2018 report “tier flattening <https://www.digitalinclusion.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NDIA-Tier-Flattening-July-2018.pdf>.”
Unlike buying a car, however, it’s hard for broadband customers to know that they are getting a Chevy and not a Porsche when they pay that single, tier-flattened price.
To buy broadband, you must enter your address into one of the telecoms’ websites to see the price, speed, and availability. Very few people are likely to enter other addresses into the site to compare speeds that their neighbors are getting—and even if they do, they aren’t likely to be able to convince the company to lower their rate.
This lack of transparency means that the companies have been able to hide the stark disparities from public view. It took Leon and Aaron months of work to scrape all the prices from company websites, then match them with Census records to analyze which neighborhoods were getting which prices.
It’s hard work, but it’s the important work that journalists must do to make these hidden disparities visible to the public.
As always, thanks for reading.
Best,
Julia Angwin
The Markup
/(Additional Hello World research by Eve Zelickson.)/

https://mrkp-static-production.themarkup.org/uploads/2021/11/support_woman_16-9-1280x720.jpg <https://themarkup.org/donate?utm_campaign=DON_HW>
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