From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37AAD3B29D for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2024 03:00:21 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1717570819; x=1718175619; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=74Decw0yjNqZsz4Qfy5NIvGoTewF1NxYke0q7O61Ao4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=ivhKmqqrqWCLb/OlmzU2xD3JfAtFh3Fd/8O664Mg40n9ADiNw8EidBijpQvv+uUZ i5RI7O1nQGsOB6b1W76J754p3ai1unDb/dgDAat+ocbfgPMhmb+ZGPKXtD7vbY8MQ QxLtl3luL2HJKwJ2tbp3nTjjociLsD2b4oG3+DCe+36iq4vDdsYlEa2rR0Iqx3Pa9 gJoddj7K4b1lHygfLwf26XxvS1CfwGlIHJUj6gi2OTDC3EHKydYkbr+CSQ2tgOzNe l7REpb42NSYC31KKpxaSk5aM+p5FwIaFpIty18uivcEVZoTjEEPc29n0zZuz6we8W GLocV8J0bHnB3PgqTg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MkHQh-1shmri1aH3-00jdAL; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 09:00:19 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.600.62\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 09:00:09 +0200 Cc: bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <63DBCCA9-7F21-4072-96AE-89163F15D49D@gmx.de> References: To: Rich Brown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.600.62) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:CP4o2DZoCB9gZiS0+pKUgV6GNOkMY1iNlHNvYGl45Mnxd80FByK BKC7tN2LgADJ6iVzUjwxs4VnOAwfrit9EC8enDC6iGgCQ43AXYh7U4cOM07/2EDhjYuZq9a bXWvKrV2HPLL53rojvHWoh9HfPTPH6d3Ejk2eaOErP/eZYDBlheHlBY51jYAJsmqcWgk+eY 7Qp35IkLOZh//iLPCWDIQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:/G3kk3Ga0M4=;eA4eU8vn22yX3whoOWirtSpwCOe in19nNmwa8ECRylTM0XxPV9sp9rVb13VAbxXq5bYUpvHSO5svJeArE7xIdHWug1krmyJOpVcS bc15XSC/unBlyxS37gudkiXT7c7Fv2JPczQREDtR9FshKdvw4svEf+6fmk9r7H/gM75t6o59W puokRj8D+K17LDZTS3FSaUQ+inSlsB2uQtCHwLX31CQb8z/EJKb6t0sjt3H79XCex8332gEGa kbIHRwwfW5wDFri/foPo2oBnPDP6M9zZCocUQOJY3rJ7jiZPhQVn4sovKl0rHc3w4qwfcWvS4 IOEUQzmcwlT/xyeioepHb9YdjlFiUrC+8g05YBsVsHJ4GzXKweTFs3GAoFXJTFgUf545qkWrB L3muREgvq4LIdNU/yOjoSpWNJnfdJAXknH5ZcYaw+kyZYmBFve1sXAp259lEa5zgkErlsbT8P Wu3NY+r5OKQ77XyCJzlmKw6Ku3XMXRPVSje3xAjTfwcZZ1tzkub0XBdIpdveqMmijAl61Wb+R NEtLrFju0AJEXIqrJ1B16g5tFVb/8GDSutiVK+mE0RXAOBXpvUBq2ZhZXXTRkiNNeqi63zj09 aNFQgX1FlZo1ERjsWRzVutSRH/QudZposGhGjYIGof+C1IIj6mmGFej8WILqQ6WAPUiPVTj8v qtg5nfVzwBfFn4OKaFAcZGllM+mZuq6EU9SBi0P3jvxhF2d3pNfWnDiM0xwwMahy1mNoZAHnU Bz67ay14GZvQzJUkdWcBvRJZiTyz1HA42mY2maZTEnd22+gnHqml8rGFFtIr0JbXTzvxvNSy1 SEHY07KUtoCK4+ZLgbmoglsS0m1zc2jYgYkhuuTf4yvFo= Subject: Re: [Bloat] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2024 07:00:21 -0000 Hi Rich, > On 5. Jun 2024, at 01:05, Rich Brown via Bloat = wrote: >=20 > I had an especially rewarding interaction on Reddit the other day. = (https://www.reddit.com/r/networking/comments/1d5dejy/bufferbloat_in_speed= _tests_but_ping_doesnt_spike/)=20 >=20 > The initial message was a fellow was saying that speed tests were = showing bufferbloat, but his ISP said all was good. There were multiple = interchanges - here's a summary: >=20 > I started to say, "Maybe things are OK then..." and he said, "Well, = I'm a gamer, and bullet registration is off..." >=20 > So I asked for a Waveform test. In true non-believer fashion, he = asked, "Is it possible to have bufferbloat on X equipment?" I said I = don't know - run the test.=20 >=20 > He did, and he did (have bufferbloat - a bit). I explained how a bunch = of 60-110msec samples might be enough to cause his hits to go awry. >=20 > We were about to get to the question I dread: "How can I fix this?" = This is the leap-of-faith moment, where we end up saying in essence: >=20 >> Your vendor(s) lied to you. You can fix this yourself. Just buy a = spare router and install some Open Source software... >=20 >=20 > I always fear this moment because there's such a high likelihood of = getting egg on the face from one or many of the reasons listed in the = original post. If they happen, I usually slink away, and say to check = the "What Can I Do About Bufferbloat" page. [SM] This sounds very familiar... there seems to be quite a lot of = activation energy for users to switch their router/router-OS, so when = ever we can offer remedies short of 'switch to OpenWrt' we have a higher = likelihood of being able to make them try it. Being in Germany it is = quite helpful that most popular independent router maker AVM with its = FritzBox line, actually implemented part of our solution and allows to = enable ingress-shaping, which will instantiate a HTB shaper and cake for = ingress traffic... Not necessarily in the most tricked-out/optimised = configuration, but what they do offer is plenty better than nothing and = has a low activation energy :) >=20 > Fortunately, he had a Ubiquiti UDM Pro, so he said, "Hey, I turned on = smart queues and it looks way better." With that sticky point out of the = way, there were several more interchanges where I got to say that both = the router and the Wi-Fi can create bufferbloat and that these = bufferbloat measurement tools are only broad indicators of "network = goodness". [SM] Exactly, not having to switch their existing hard ware goes a long = way, as testing whether the proposed remedy has merit is easy enough for = folks to try. > So this is one circumstance where it worked out. But I ache to have = some advice to address the dread-causing question. Any thoughts? Thanks. [SM] I come up blank, but I have encountered the same issue, although I = have never analysed it as deeply and well as you did. Regards Sebastian >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat