Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

[Kathleen Nichols <nichols@pollere.com>]

I never have any problem hearing you, Dave.

Random stuff in-line.

On 11/27/16 1:24 PM, Dave Taht wrote:
> There *are* 430+ other minds on this mailing list, and probably a few
> AIs.
> 
> Sometimes I worry that most of our postings go into spamboxes now,
> or that we've somehow completely burned people out since our heyday
> in 2012.
> 
> knock, knock - is this mic on?
> 
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com>
> wrote:
...
>> 
>> My impression is that we have reached a strong technical point. We
>> have solved some really hard, really significant problems. We are
>> in a position to Declare Victory on a large part of the problem,
>> even though there are loads of details to clean up.

I think this is important. Some really good work has been done by a lot of
people on this list and I have found it interesting, enlightening and
gratifying to
put some small bit of a solution out there and have people grab it,
improve it,
add to it and make it real. So I think people doing that work should pat
themselves on the
back.
>> 
>> Most of the suggestions in this thread deal with Getting the Word
>> Out. That's good - that's the declaring victory part. The bad news
>> is that this is not our collective skill set.

So that's the hard part. Who do you need to Get the Word Out to and what
do you expect them to do? It sounds like there are some edge router
improvements coming. It's possible that some companies are using the
work but they are advertising what it does for the customer not where it
came from or what it is technically. So that might be a victory.
>> 
...
>> 4) Do we know people at any of the cell phone companies, or router
>> vendors on whom we could try one last push?
>> 
>> As part of organizing my thoughts for this note, I also collected
>> the following ideas from this thread. I add my $0.02 below.

Well, getting cellular networks on board would be a coup.
>> 
>> Rich
>> 
>> 1) I don't see that Ookla has much incentive to include bufferbloat
>> measurements in their test, since they private-label it for lots of
>> ISPs who (presumably) wouldn't want their CPE to be proven crappy.
>> ("It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his
>> salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Sinclair)

This is, sadly, likely correct.
>> 
>> 2) The gamer community seems like such a perfect target for these
>> improvements. But I fear that the thought leaders are so wrapped up
>> in the fame generated by their own clever QoS tricks that they
>> can't believe that fq_codel plus the make-wifi-fast fixes could
>> possibly address such a complicated subject. (Upton Sinclair,
>> again.)

But where do you find who benefits and who can have an effect? I don't
know anything about these traffic patterns but would be interested in
seeing them if possible.
>> 
>> 3) On the other hand, Comcast (whose DOCSIS modems *might* someday
>> support PIE or other SQM) is in a position to benefit from an
>> increased awareness of the phenomenon, leaving a little ray of
>> hope.

I don't know. I think it has to be a more serious goal at Comcast. The
bufferbloat measurement devices they sent out were electrically
problematic, taking our signal down and reducing bandwidth.  This seems
like one step above skunkworks.
...
>> 6) It *is* a good idea to think about attracting the attention of
>> vendors who are hurt by bufferbloat - VoIP, video streaming folks,
>> gaming companies, etc. But it feels like the wrong end of the lever
>> - a gaming company can't fix crappy CPE, and they're stuck saying

Yes, it's hard for the victims unless there is an alternative or they
wield a large amount of coordinated monetary power. The video streaming
folks, from my measurements, are trashing themselves. Why are they
creating such huge bursts? Why send out bursts that are going to arrive
at the same time? This isn't a bufferbloat problem really, it's a clue
problem.
>> 
>> 7) Cell phones are another place that obviously would benefit,
>> although, again, it's hard to break through the notion that "It's
>> always been like that..."

Yes, but who would benefit? Is it a content company that could put
pressure on some carrier?
>> 
>> What else?

This is good thinking, Rich, but the business side of the current
"ecosystem" seems disincentivized to progress.
>> 
>> Rich
>> 
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