From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from sonic302-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic302-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [87.248.110.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AB893CB35 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 20:52:51 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.fr; s=s2048; t=1604541167; bh=79NhRnS2Vq9ST2+oIxOMtX5fb+f9lk5/+iCWDcc2V/c=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=aMewfwDqd7tB0KlJLKZdFU/Xh5F6mSlZ9+sZQDJcSWQxnL6eup32b4f2j0u4BpFlZVffoFS71lkFj5xSnbe9/Zy/6ug7qAC9NQ1B1OW9fl13dDiN4pPEM8FgTjJgb/BKb18aoJDHdrZmtF7GjyUpJ5W83LA9MG7i9ukQlzc/Ghvsc1Vv8Z65pJm9vIoDoBLv33uD3pHtYSsjdevBUhaqcn29Z3/Th89dIZBpLUaGKb43DkM7uxGqcjq5+I+3J6jgMAJVW59/TSLWi5KOVpDr2cOhXfZL/8CbsYObejTxx8yy8hwB68+whjSRFL8qLQWTWfqmusIotxgUhRXlNRhI3A== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1604541167; bh=50oFOMpbevYtDwuCStfdsGX1HjZ0Zo7289AKSgTieNU=; h=Date:From:To:Subject; b=Z5RcJutUv/7P5kg9QIZs0soVp/9c5wyYNd7ggexBLK6xmH6Haod2u7x08gPHiObfYE5FfiiPlW2e7v2Sv4FkvztcqR51GG3zi21ryOyaAnAkNQur6kOLRG7Ha79NNziEIFYHSz4YDLvdNqiqWs4F3xKd0gKBR5yUZFdoLlHVwxhP0HeYvmuj8BZLH2rFIUc9WGOCo+oPIWl54M16LI/AS+DrPz+smme5KDSCqYxQALzLup6jDf1Wi/pASIoMEybmYT8Ptfjp58bTw+NNHW2rsd70mGrkWEJ2uHFZ0FTKIupOV69Je71hTcl/kCBWB3ahI/Cc0GqvWVUNrl+K3jAaVw== X-YMail-OSG: Qwk8Qd4VM1k0Nv3NCD.YkYeDfharo76fcAw3eBnC5WgQz4Dp_4DP1LsR7XD.nVt 2vRO5ZBJneEROjeiQhr7uJhcjNfF.dgTPO5vde.YERWUGDzSmzGoFXnNxsqeMt77YSM4NWGTHBuW MSRx55p73wfeBuUk6hPAYggzF_YwcqqBp4auKaeHvoaAVU7ChqZQqDBChZy4PFEginIFCOfVitw5 yTQ79IA.NQgmb4qcmatZPldDfZ_b8JTRKSR6b1z8p0kvyKHW_OCtmMpQKh2h.gEvTtcp0UKlUQEn 3UkvMeC5s6H.yc0_95FICx1FRQIizDW2ULxIWCYMBi89DjKTRJqDD52vlvaelwacdP6_Ej.PvDQn eAOXCNQEcRc.zmgP_Auq91OEI.97KS0MbKTeJod.MecjtnrUywPG6tNb4OIGbm1FudGYOMac5eSr 1oxJYYzSRvycU45e7Y1IcB6Vyf4v3ADcgzyt0zyNk68ia1ppX.H1IHJxiFePGwddiOY2uaTrpw7h EaMiRlgjt8aOnv2WIxU4slafdgq9EP4imJ_ME6UyrbN7cW3EuGRLkL.mDDPaIUMKD_RUBP5Q9DKF XEqehn2G9DnvLhSXlxjwgOSXxUjNcUnA6gVatl13_Ca8IeOSt_K4dTHPs2Ttqq8vJNINkGKAho3s ASI.fi6RMh00GsCpSNAerbWUGj0Gc9.nSxMGgU_i0PhaIktYkVX85qu.i4R34L.PWNPM9RJjo7jV h5SE1yD4I8olB6JAEBYSMqt.iFsgP5wPHV4VWfxMdpqVeCpRVwfCfq5_UwIEBqnTO6cz7YBY1G9y QI70zmt6p9zxMrrCbtzYpGcW2A1ZkyTq6Cn4Kq7SzNHwRYvxxA8D2Ga0S11sFpeNjWamQHpej.Qq 8BSc3CNqQxFv4IUXmVkSC1LD0Rrf8Ijh2E3tS2iWETfgdUahzAP5R_Luc0Fll2hxohd_llcdpJsx Piu6.9bDsW0dkTOAodXDnFfM9v3ZoQ_DM3eQ6V8bIGeo8n7vnLwPAex6FG7tWBskTZDo2xW2QhXJ fFTf1Xu9eYo3fBlRAxGg0Co9DYY0uVkaJnmoucjzAebjxwFBqPc51F51GQcAPFrYjk1eGcAVz9Ei ZiCnwJPPegk0kfG4u5zSydNNcV4hqIkkXoAmK8UA8MW5PZ_N.s4dn8poZQCEs4.2IApqQEIA3hYf uLNvVvUmO2kKJVXPOj9fipIx8xzEB_cegHgJTdn4g4ZwstXpeBVBmlTpCJJvz58gNQbvTKxVFj_i djOzdeVZSLuF0sXbiQ5TGjD7XpwToNOUAbEa3HMMgwty7r.3_VHyvrsIo4QRVrbLxEpyyEZOacOy 1Nu6x_aaF_rknH3QlD3O016TI8gqU0gGck2XOCuQaD_JNY.gZVxl2CdsmqHi02.5nhwhExR1.dEJ 12MW32zcB56.I65mPTD3izod9Dw4yuvjrcOeEPIogiIZWv70xOX85Tq7indMHJpeXPBHTuok8Etd LgPdhZt8Ix7UuZTmjOGqmJJwyVt22Twkp3Q5_0kxot7dt7MnYCbYIc0izfcaP1avQ.hOyeBT7bky gWxzrrL64viWvKCXDbtv5_ygEXMF2Dyds3CElPNR5Mw3akbPQwhS0NAsAV8T_DTtXGiSAFz1Ts8R Bm0lnvjZYAK.TswDthnU0KHZ7YMn25je6UoNXt4TRPn4fxwFSAba_Q5L_2QYzpnFr9JJiJQPEsZ3 68POw3BOuvVoiiyRKI30e2oLojvIssRpSEq7xkaT_MdYS_5kdMmBSMZIWQu93cq2sYX1mV.va2uQ LV5jJVtg5MRazBJgfgd_QQrZVlFLGDbtk5r9YGzWxv3lPCpAjEcVOqjPR6Y2rCKbPhWWy0vpvv57 3NiyOQ84E6w9PAVHhQ9ekEnWdqFKmJszq6.4TD66gt4JvN0DFcnlyynGedo5_xJd6B.PQGGkiTcG 3qDMp79BPWounpNMY_0ED2Xno9K20rd5xbsw.jqSZ3HmvfJMzgrK61_ixYFgaa9OZimAlJqnO9Ka kYHiw4J7MejL0E3GU7gnRboT9VhJQKuOx_GgEs6tnpWntTu1BfnUDjEpVtqNjoC1PT62uXlnJ1Z_ ahUfDhCO_HWTAQREOqWqm9oyISLHI9uhCBTJ1OlZ4K3Rv1vXqh8YNF1TRQ4h3QBFEfQL7wrI_PZR JaLuiOLPgvhkoYmjOyB4cHltOkjrJIoagTuay8n5uXgxhzAuxcZJn1I15X_SB1zpnk4vhoMuIjeP iCzZo8y4N3VOwSJX1waiFuUGAGlK6PFiCmqdytq9hnO0iINyXMQVMa1_yzkF93OoHanrnaTsJu2. QgipvsTIZgKNixrBNx1gcxeGheBuIO2jftFac.QqLK9DlwgKCBiKzt5AdEBr4Zr9iyxGKBKwGlJJ Jkkt.1bLqhcGyoA9zzjzmo3Sa7cAIAoKlViDmp7gr448AGaYhjL8pg0TGfXt.TU_2auFWlCgBHhf AZyJ5ZFE_eFeFfuyBuayAY4sJ7DlBUGmt79YxxA3euPO3fE.9dsvXgNcD8I58VhRZHJbnbK5I4Lg 1nBQ2UZWcXqFB Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 5 Nov 2020 01:52:47 +0000 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 01:52:46 +0000 (UTC) From: Y To: Sam Westwood , "bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" , =?UTF-8?Q?Toke_H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= Message-ID: <696343821.4042613.1604541166957@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <874km4vfsr.fsf@toke.dk> References: <874km4vfsr.fsf@toke.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16944 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:82.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/82.0 Subject: Re: [Bloat] We built a new bufferbloat test and keen for feedback X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2020 01:52:51 -0000 https://www.waveform.com/apps/dev-arshan?test-id=3Da9f994a0-171c-48d3-a40d-= 1550f13b2319 Great job. This is the result of my slow internees. I would like to know th= e criteria for the grade. Le jeudi 5 novembre 2020 =C3=A0 08:54:57 UTC+9, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rg= ensen via Bloat a =C3=A9crit :=20 Sam Westwood writes: > Hi everyone, > > My name is Sam and I'm the co-founder and COO of Waveform.com. At Wavefor= m > we provide equipment to help improve cell phone service, and being in the > industry we've always been interested in all aspects of network > connectivity. Bufferbloat for us has always been interesting, and while > there are a few tests out there we never found one that was fantastic. So > we thought we'd try and build one! > > My colleague Arshan has built the test, which we based upon the Cloudflar= e > Speedtest template that was discussed earlier in the summer in a previous > thread. > > We measure bufferbloat under two conditions: when downlink is saturated a= nd > when uplink is saturated. The test involves three stages: Unloaded, > Downlink Saturated, and Uplink Saturated. In the first stage we simply > measure latency to a file hosted on a CDN. This is usually around 5ms and > could vary a bit based on the user's location. We use the webTiming API t= o > find the time-to-first-byte, and consider that as the latency. In the > second stage we run a download, while simultaneously measuring latency. I= n > the third stage we do the same but for upload. Both download and upload > usually take around 5 seconds. We show the median, first quartile and the > third quartile on distribution charts corresponding to each stage to > provide a visual representation of the latency variations. For download a= nd > upload we have used Cloudflare's speedtest backend. This sounds great, thanks for doing this! It certainly sounds like you're on the right track here. Some comments below... > You can find the test here: https://www.waveform.com/apps/dev-arshan > > We built testing it on Chrome, but it works on Firefox and mobile too. On > mobile results may be a little different, as the APIs aren't available an= d > so instead we implemented a more manual method, which can be a little > noisier. > > This is a really early alpha, and so we are keen to get any and all > feedback you have :-). Things that we would particularly like feedback on= : > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - How does the bufferbloat measure compare to other tests yo= u may have >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 run on the same connection (e.g. dslreports, fast.com) >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - How the throughput results (download/upload/latency) look = compared to >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 other tools I'm fortunate enough to have a full Gbps fibre link, which makes it really hard to saturate the connection from a browser test (or at all, sometimes). Your test does a decent job and comes pretty close, at least in Chromium (about 800 Mbps which is not too far off at the application layer, considering I have a constant 100Mbps flow in the background taking up some of the bandwidth). Firefox seems way off (one test said 500Mbps the other >1000). This does mean that I can't say much that's useful about your bufferbloat scores, unfortunately. The latency measurement puzzled me a bit (your tool says 16.6ms, but I get half that when I ping the cloudfront.net CDN, which I think is what you're measuring against?), but it does seem to stay fairly constant. How do you calculate the jitter score? It's not obvious how you get from the percentiles to the jitter. Link to the test in Chromium: https://www.waveform.com/apps/dev-arshan?test-id=3D91a55adc-7513-4b55-b8a6-= 0fa698ce634e >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Any feedback on the user interface of the test itself? We = know that >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 before releasing more widely we will put more effort into ex= plaining >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bufferbloat than we have so far. Brain dump of thoughts on the UI: I found it hard to tell whether it was doing anything while the test was running. Most other tests have some kind of very obvious feedback (moving graphs of bandwidth-over-time for cloudflare/dslreports, a honking big number going up and down for fast.com), which I was missing here. I would also have liked to a measure of bandwidth over time, it seems a bit suspicious (from a "verify that this is doing something reasonable" PoV) that it just spits out a number at the end without telling me how long it ran, or how it got to that number. It wasn't obvious at first either that the header changes from "bufferbloat test" to "your bufferbloat grade" once the test is over I think the stages + result would be better put somewhere else where it's more obvious (the rest of the page grows downwards, so why isn't the result at the "end"?). Also, what are the shields below the grade supposed to mean? Do they change depending on the result? On which criteria? And it's telling me I have an A+ grade, so why is there a link to fix my bufferbloat issues? Smaller nit, I found the up/down arrows in "up saturated" and "down saturated" a bit hard to grasp at first, I think spelling out upload/download would be better. Also not sure I like the "saturated" term in the first place; do people know what that means in a networking context? And can you be sure the network is actually *being* saturated? Why is the "before you start" text below the page? Shouldn't it be at the top? And maybe explain *why* this is important? >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Anything else you would like to give feedback on? As far as the web page itself is concerned, holy cross-domain script deluge, Batman! I'm one of those people who run uMatrix in my regular Firefox session, and I disallow all cross-site script loads by default. I had to allow 15(!) different cross-site requests, *and* whitelist a few domains in my ad blocker as well to even get the test to run. Please fix this! I get that you can't completely avoid cross-domain requests due to the nature of the test, but why is a speedtest pulling in scripts from 'shopify.com' and three different ad tracking networks? I realise some of this may just be because you put this thing on your corporate web site, and thus a lot of it is not directly related to the speed test itself. But all the same, having to wade through chest-high piles of javascript just to get to the test doesn't exactly scream "trustworthy company that just wants to help me fight bufferbloat" :) (For comparison, dslreports, fast.com and speed.cloudflare.com all pull in scripts from exactly three domains, all of them directly related to the test, and none of them fail with my default uBlock blocklist). -Toke _______________________________________________ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat