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Wed, 24 May 2023 08:18:27 +0200 Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 08:18:22 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller To: Dave Taht , Dave Taht via Bloat , bloat User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A01F1D0-A8A7-4CD6-B93A-7B35BBEF5B11@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:N2p3jqxKoTWSubzSrGBiNdVMvKb8FzE4Rboqk6vpuAi3sYEWpYX aUzRWQVntQaX1OCnKe2zR/BEHQw6t5Bhd0rLjhvsej4/2oNNEICNKkdb0S+SDyzvf8Ya61X y0HqYA1AGQGkHf4e+Oqg2gTYu7FvA+Qq242Pj7S2Il29dA+j2DqKJSNlIXzrg1UEHNDs5Kr gnRcMnEVsTrx/Inx4g9Nw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:jvWwpWS2KoQ=;KIYjUWdTn4La64oqhyxTVZSc980 hkd4jM63yvjk3HS6HxebO+EnLsCu4uRZaMnJ3Osj3iqdN7zKGrN8ozvvgCOFkf5B/lMl9wUyx +3w6F4tmJV1xC/z8il8N3Rmyx6HiRNePN+GQ4SkISb56q4l0Tz1RDi8eOxRZnqPXIOAibbbbV IJ9yMGjNqehinBIJ2VvHfvuxVIDkgxWAn621RiHOpclYzBvSr9KPHtcIgS7KnUOPWGsbvSp2d UDm8S/6gcLDwD4KT+w5PxlsocwR6CkbL0vs6fYEC1ykBnPBsQOBN+gzzysgJszaRJuBziZCfm kFnGKMO3ZxEFZ6b1c140+4zctC0yBRXi90fydcZgM9UitUoeWzlfWVwga/j3XzSRDOUQBLvNB DKRs9ndel6Eqvg4PMpRdcovCE37ZHn2q9Ng0yaze09I6x8zqown6ucf06YT/8vMPyQ83mxrVG IL1cul9q39ppuF0Y13njZiVXLfbWTOm/OUJ0wEB7RdgvUl/PHJiJ/6HQo4GYi2SZ7wTCmw+Hf pGTICXB8p9yTYXEe+iaAXHr+LpMdvS7X1jC/XaPVu1GL1ayXXk51YTXa7/P0DHQlx2akjRSai oPaJsD/w0o0MSAjlQ8JmMRGdH4F0EQMaM2j33+63z0HCqTV/QyDtLAgQpg9gYouJtaKkeXgiG 9VztEVI4TIk+fDvvaSV95Zh3KyExUIsZwRrKjZrMeQSTr1vD+rb1zlUG7mOk77iDVlHnKm4q/ VdbFxgiQJLFEAX4fFakEXlMr7lESk0Djb/XrDwgFtNx81576SL5Pe1IefI6G7nXhx/BSEepvV iVmoIsMM1XYpTyt3mQkxEEYwgs+iYcOmlP2aUwEbsXjV31ozsmANSrSLKW4xP+FA7DJlQxHbD CsDzy4RWrEQQP2QC2cqp5TIGv5eQOOu1RUbdZZUVISfoAb1cvuSJku04Ymw1CbOrj03wg+lJy uRCfbA== Subject: Re: [Bloat] Quote of the week X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 06:18:29 -0000 Hmmm=2E=2E=2E=2E On 23 May 2023 23:05:05 CEST, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote: >from: https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/blog/banishing-bufferbloat/ > >"Therefore, innovations like L4S and FQ-CoDel complement each other >and should be deployed together=2E" The article is quite positive in its framing which suits its purpose well= =2E It unfortunately does not mention that fq_codel and l4s differ in some = arguably important dimensions, like fq_codel has proved its worth (and docu= mented its shortcomings) by over 5 years of in-the-field deployment, while = l4s is just about to leave the lab# (with an already impressive list of sho= rtcomings)=2E Here is a gauntlet for team L4S to demonstrate that 'the market' actually = has been waiting for l4s: Video conferencing streams tend to ada'tively adjust their rates trying to= get acceptable quality within the available capacity=2E However, currently= some like teams and discord seem to have a lower bound below which they be= come quite sluggish in throttling down even further, which is problematic o= n low capacity or variable capacity links like LTE, as the under-responsive= video data will 'clog the pipes' resulting in bad latency for the whole li= nk (assuming no competent AQM on the ISP's to-the-customer link)=2E So here is the challenge: modify teams/discord to rapidly respond* to l4s = signaling even at low rates to improve latency for all, and then convince t= he maker to actually incorporate those changes at least as user controlled = option=2E Level2: make sure the same method also works trans-oceanicly, tha= t is will allow video conferencing between continents=2E=2E=2E Regards #) Still displeasef that the IETF ratified L4S based essentially on insuff= icient data about delivery of its promises over the existing internet (test= ing mostly consisted of repeating the same known working condituons with mi= ld changes)=2E It taught me an important lesson about how the IETFs stated = goals and processes differ from what is actually permissable inside the pro= cess=2E So for one I appreciate the flexibility and willingness to make som= e compromises, but on the other hand that flexibility apparently is easy to= game for actors willing to invest time=2E *)IMHO this will introduce painful decisions about video resolution and qu= ality, up to dropping video completely and switching to audio only=2E > >--=20 >Podcast: https://www=2Elinkedin=2Ecom/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793= 910227111937/ >Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >_______________________________________________ >Bloat mailing list >Bloat@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/bloat --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E