From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from secmail.pch.net (secmail.pch.net [206.220.231.87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78CA93B2A4 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2023 21:22:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from secmail.pch.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by secmail.pch.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4SlyjM5jyNz4yd8S for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2023 18:22:47 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: secmail.pch.net (amavisd-new); dkim=pass reason="pass (just generated, assumed good)" header.d=pch.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=pch.net; h= x-mailer:to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:content-type; s= secmail_dkim; t=1701915767; x=1704507768; bh=LVY/h2+zet/SbRe3FRx 74BSQ0SodzPSPNkSnHNEk1RY=; b=2/qNYCrxlU3R+jn77OkXj4pZB1iSMnhugc3 VUvfNBtJfPEUiRWU6EovCZzhXPAZxk+n5xAqJBbzDAWmEstnUl1tD9uVlnDq8w0f 19DW1mL7M7tAlMLYlFRMUvsdOFpdRpq4zAJnTq+emK063SnmpDyypjJ+l3hsGzyD 40XPCpyR2L6b7GfKkXifTphqDgOmFjQ6pMjQPiqPy6yqGsrFFn5bJn/rwvN56nuf ba5OdXrUcBssbIhITTZcu/9wv4epro9YVZQY3AQ15A2SG5N5ZtuL24cACR6mqNsD MuYn5qE5UUv9swDl3kPuryEPxBYi9BPhKF0b36/NCOAqUd6D4TA== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at secmail.pch.net Received: from secmail.pch.net ([127.0.0.1]) by secmail.pch.net (secmail.pch.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id BenvB3EfszeS for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2023 18:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [66.185.123.190]) by secmail.pch.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4SlyjL0Lm4z4yd8P; Wed, 6 Dec 2023 18:22:45 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_10EDCE8B-972F-4B44-BD96-9E745E1FEBDE"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.200.91.1.1\)) From: Bill Woodcock In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 03:22:43 +0100 Cc: Sauli Kiviranta , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6CA05409-11BD-4733-9CB1-14400736F050@pch.net> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.200.91.1.1) Subject: Re: [Bloat] [NNagain] CFP march 1 - network measurement conference X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 02:22:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_10EDCE8B-972F-4B44-BD96-9E745E1FEBDE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Dec 6, 2023, at 22:46, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain = wrote: > What would be a comprehensive measurement? Should cover all/most = relevant areas? It=E2=80=99s easy to specify a suite of measurements which is too heavy = to be easily implemented or supported on the network. Also, as you = point out, many things can be derived from raw data, so don=E2=80=99t = necessarily require additional specific measurements. > Payload Size: The size of data being transmitted. > Event Rate: The frequency at which payloads are transmitted. > Bitrate: The combination of rate and size transferred in a given test. > Throughput: The data transfer capability achieved on the test path. All of that can probably be derived from sufficiently finely-grained TCP = data. i.e. if you had a PCAP of a TCP flow that constituted the = measurement, you=E2=80=99d be able to derive all of the above. > Bandwidth: The data transfer capacity available on the test path. Presumably the goal of a TCP transaction measurement would be to enable = this calculation. > Transfer Efficiency: The ratio of useful payload data to the overhead = data. This is a how-its-used rather than a property-of-the-network. If there = are network-inherent overheads, they=E2=80=99re likely to be not = directly visible to endpoints, only inferable, and might require = external knowledge of the network. So, I=E2=80=99d put this = out-of-scope. > Round-Trip Time (RTT): The ping delay time to the target server and = back. > RTT Jitter: The variation in the delay of round-trip time. > Latency: The transmission delay time to the target server and back. > Latency Jitter: The variation in delay of latency. RTT is measurable. If Latency is RTT minus processing delay on the = remote end, I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s really measurable, per se, = without the remote end being able to accurately clock itself, or an = independent vantage point adjacent to the remote end. This is the old = one-way-delay measurement problem in different guise, I think. Anyway, = I think RTT is easy and necessary, and I think latency is difficult and = probably an anchor not worth attaching to anything we want to see done = in the near term. Latency jitter likewise. > Bit Error Rate: The corrupted bits as a percentage of the total > transmitted data. This seems like it can be derived from a PCAP, but doesn=E2=80=99t = really constitute an independent measurement. > Packet Loss: The percentage of packets lost that needed to be = recovered. Yep. > Energy Efficiency: The amount of energy consumed to achieve the test = result. Not measurable. > Did I overlook something? Out-of-order delivery is the fourth classical quality criterion. There = are folks who argue that it doesn=E2=80=99t matter anymore, and others = who (more compellingly, to my mind) argue that it=E2=80=99s at least as = relevant as ever. Thus, for an actual measurement suite: - A TCP transaction =E2=80=A6from which we can observe: - Loss - RTT (which I=E2=80=99ll just call =E2=80=9CLatency=E2=80=9D because = that=E2=80=99s what people have called it in the past) - out-of-order delivery - Jitter in the above three, if the transaction continues long enough =E2=80=A6and we can calculate: - Goodput In addition to these, I think it=E2=80=99s necessary to also associate a = traceroute (and, if available and reliable, a reverse-path traceroute) = in order that it be clear what was measured, and a timestamp, and a = digital signature over the whole thing, so we can know who=E2=80=99s = attesting to the measurement. -Bill --Apple-Mail=_10EDCE8B-972F-4B44-BD96-9E745E1FEBDE Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCA24w ggNqMIICUqADAgECAgrA7NJadBOCNFD5MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMGMxFjAUBgNVBAMTDUJpbGwg V29vZGNvY2sxHjAcBgNVBAoTFVBhY2tldCBDbGVhcmluZyBIb3VzZTEcMBoGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYN d29vZHlAcGNoLm5ldDELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMwHhcNMjMxMTA3MDkxODQ3WhcNMjgxMTA3MDkxODQ3 WjBjMRYwFAYDVQQDEw1CaWxsIFdvb2Rjb2NrMR4wHAYDVQQKExVQYWNrZXQgQ2xlYXJpbmcgSG91 c2UxHDAaBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDXdvb2R5QHBjaC5uZXQxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG 9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAyKjxKKsDg1tDYEZNuiQz6jVybmnJxXFKXGmNVsfqLYg850a+ 54QoLzZPGWIjqOQv8ttLHz35N9jNgOQCqvNdtiXxNPHh/tUv2ZKAFYhK2SsYMFRZk+nO+WiYd2YN XNnhkfjAOnzi6F3ZSRls/lgo3bijsYGJqlGZg70hqKg9KYQwuv8Y2gbDgZORQDjkH3AYKJO7xI1p xWzJGLvNM4ZEtP96PmPXIlsMrp6YE5IOOncmksqsviVmiiQ9+cARG0UfvWnCwqPc8nJAAfXRecnQ 66ESwsWCK/q8rHp7UMmVrB5HPFqXZ1HGfs/Y7VWo+fqJxUhHNJvzy1D2K1mhNI3pFQIDAQABoyAw HjAPBgkqhkiG9y8BAQoEAgUAMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIHgDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFAAOCAQEAMB6GtiNf vLbig/NulzfLnzdyKkDC5mTZdh2i4LUFYbhI5JBQAGkrDYrI7INCNFV7jBBr04sA3KxT2eUCU6J4 LPlf/RwUNnIOOOgphXEWo+QJ7UCR0pXnY2n45s8u/b02k8b3+YCmlmo0oXLAIjc0dYW1IGWQ0nDT i921Lk/qizpCRy6niEsnRsxvvfJh0T4vVGk054H6ZrJwBz3uMEs7xUUhNDXXU09Euz5f+DEUNmJ+ SbylNvxFcGHFEZe+h1QAbQSE1FO5yWeSxCZpLpjcDrMWm/5B9vQT+mn22eNbnT2HWl7iiV4vRus9 /miHsTS4hPFvYCtQ0xBbzHk20eTkITGCAgcwggIDAgEBMHEwYzEWMBQGA1UEAxMNQmlsbCBXb29k Y29jazEeMBwGA1UEChMVUGFja2V0IENsZWFyaW5nIEhvdXNlMRwwGgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFg13b29k eUBwY2gubmV0MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUwIKwOzSWnQTgjRQ+TANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFAKBpMBgGCSqG SIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTIzMTIwNzAyMjI0M1owLwYJKoZI hvcNAQkEMSIEILmHbn0kBOOeLDVuU6blmhIU5mrPYOymf1UGJiONrc92MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUA BIIBAJHnlfCcuAwd9ob5Mr7oIdGuRCMn+/8mjotA4gTV2UjhLoNmhrwFpGy4be4gNPqSCMCXYUed soyPs+HiRNTxqyoXdJA9iLMMig8Wlf7T4wWNhsjOScEUEhTLgcYFqehE40mqnCoTys/uCLRGBd9s jTF3uCSMoovaw3TaXIEW3Y6Hu/UD/RByOyE2M4w9Pd3tm5E0CNcTzXz9OSxfQEx6I5k+CzKx6Kpa W63O2st9hnRFyAZCYtNOu/LciHeZhy2St06SHSRxmyuGcw7TGMIgCE5kJ5TB/8QZm6EKNnYIZxv1 84rNr6WZBHHYPwbiRMFN/hhwaBDIi+d/wlspGN7kQPYAAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail=_10EDCE8B-972F-4B44-BD96-9E745E1FEBDE--