From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from sonic314-24.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic314-24.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.189.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 790CC3B29E for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 21:36:28 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s2048; t=1530495388; bh=keEmah4kmogVx+BqJoJhgPIr86DGBKkmIvZj2VQYUNw=; h=Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=thcm0N52KwvjGXuwWJmvF3IEj4jvnjKpTudD5NYxEC2DXrmJnjtXh1/N0DnIoRLoWsxxgF4Sv7IDJTrn+Ao9WVj555PhZCY55E71b3P+k6CAhsGDYQer1GOWGRGUqclsUJlR2Tm4zSvCIa+oE/g0HgkMWLdAXTjszUJfEpc2TBluG+vOmQsRG/rbXTVB41KPAJow1vzu5SHsfKDkNP9E6yJn7gxn5sg1A/ytLo95fIIW0x714pFivDRRONQQ5adZ+aTN0JvbPTyzjCiqqZuJvJleOoKwDZbMGJtRdqDJp27ZAEIPFs/+KaYOARvxbwezJph4xbMdtFR9u8iAIV5/cA== X-YMail-OSG: _p3PQYcVM1lZ3WsaCgi37rG5.59vCBH5p7Q6Jal.Mfxa9ME9S5uywj1F9bq5D7C XbtU3i7vxjzZUfamK9RPLxMYcPzB2_ly3hu2k1V52XtLlq_jjSZSTAEvrn8LQy7OveCDi2CxfKz5 dRgNc6sXyF.G4G60FbPgZX1ygXWeNdR5hotCyw4fa1boReISpKQU_ygzX5mxYfkb3m_FmOAuWe3t qjrSLXpR4KqeweLn4pKi2Ej6aJ6nq7D6qOvJbFDaskPy6oat2_KKNHU4SBJ9DLDGzNr8wqmroc43 qeCbn1.vJI.y19J5CmKMtSmna25zC6O4.vCBev.agw0r6cKKowkOFIGebZvHHm9D.ziLJqcImuvM Ge0l._0x4K.hhLpl7nz37GGeon6S0a3YwO9elo806XDUc_hfqrkx8cTTV0kY55HHh0eVbDjX28hu JBvFNGtsJeYf2ulQIqVQTDXSSAJeKxzpcTqhhRT2GEw0MpeGJRXhlpMKCfyPcQA3bS8srffkg2W7 4T8W5Ak5EabkinmIvC.NbreLlcr7cjA2d1T1SSNCkk1HgSHpI5.Hj4tMfaxaR_MU47pe1zW5ra0w hxCgdxH3thQ8M4g_O5AVvMENfAsBUdyImXRpNJrb5GrBfE5d6blw8IPtBvTaDCe4GBxe0Zf0rsUG efoK1FjlACdWv8A._hlDjX_puVzem1z37O0ao9wjvKeLFu8W8KBkVpcIEm56vLKiC.gmOl_zYrbR 7goLRrraybDHbaKwuHYn_PvBhWoIm.diWYE1F81tCnv0HGD1uglNqGsOGflKkKeNkG.btvDGIE3v db45.TIQ9UfdnOseU6_rjoEYCl5DR3TF7jfjEM8dG12VTFb9BJYUdFFJfdDFr5E6AdOg3Qu7uEyO exa9uo9uuv7ijPhM6ZEvHBovMwwU_Sd_FKCNrskPkwUrH6Aj6fWRdlkdnURSDmhJaQWjZHWiPK9s O0CB.K.UjRJaoVXvdCaODwYh6z8g4cf5TnVXOVg7d.dzwppipQqwMBzyr6w-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 01:36:28 +0000 Received: from CPEbc4dfba21363-CMbc4dfba21360.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com (EHLO [192.168.0.10]) ([99.242.215.211]) by smtp415.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID cfac26d2bfaeb0d4d84f145dfe04594b; Mon, 02 Jul 2018 01:36:26 +0000 (UTC) Reply-To: davecb@spamcop.net To: Jonathan Morton , davecb@spamcop.net Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <776b2a30-071c-bb36-42a4-dee3e6596c79@rogers.com> From: David Collier-Brown Message-ID: <6d4a6819-795e-fbab-9c73-17067f44c5a8@rogers.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 21:36:25 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Subject: Re: [Bloat] building a better toaster X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 01:36:28 -0000 On 01/07/18 08:17 PM, Jonathan Morton wrote: >> On 2 Jul, 2018, at 2:34 am, David Collier-Brown wrote: >> >> If you put your cost accountants in one silo and your engineers in another, you get to be an ex-company (;-)) > Maybe so, but if you let the former have absolute authority over the latter, you'll end up with the same shoddy far-eastern-made crap as everyone else, because buying the standard mass-produced components and plugging them together is all the budget will allow for. Likewise, if you let Marketing dictate the schedule, you *will* end up releasing something unfinished and buggy as hell, because it took 80% of the time to reach feature-complete and the remaining 20% is distribution lead-time, not available for debugging or even basic usability testing. > > The fact that both of the above happen far too often is a source of intense frustration. The fact that many retailers won't even bother stocking a higher-quality product that happens to exist is downright *insulting*. > > I could give you all sorts of railway analogies to go with this. The British railway industry alone is a rich vein of examples of abject stupidity contrasted with brilliance. > > There is a middle ground. Have cost be one of the factors for the engineers to optimise for, but don't make it the overriding factor. Tell them the commercial benefits of shipping in time for the holiday season, or back-to-school, or whatever - but let *them* decide if it's worth rushing the product out to meet that schedule. Consequently, you'll get a better product that might just surprise the market. > > - Jonathan Morton > > A good cost accountant is a wonderful thing, but they need to work closely with engineers in engineering companies  to get the right product, one factor in which is cost. --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain