From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x733.google.com (mail-qk1-x733.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::733]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C61183B2A4 for ; Wed, 12 May 2021 17:51:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x733.google.com with SMTP id k127so23786640qkc.6 for ; Wed, 12 May 2021 14:51:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:reply-to:subject:to:references:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=fAy8+Vw/xGsjLlHPCUUMNi6HhlwZb9KSKMUDSKBYNqU=; b=gYIExum5nS7Ee2cgMpBvgI+Dr8ODPGViW/zJpBMrWTGV0JZ8O0eOtjrZKTGUtlTXy3 yjferTiPnL4mYTCLU8mog4S1WYvv9rjs8/hR+nxjHdWnlq1ZCE9EWbgXyj2XsFkttYAx 9BCe0NGI1rwKtOtrfLIL/njIvlgDXKJ4RGWwwTHRXI6SDrDISgjVhtf2LvajhpYiOw8S 1fuxIiVHiMSnFoFcp+Xzu+y2Tk15a49C454gFSBMHy3zolv1b08pM8zUZmCEP6W4lHpE RXlWw/C/TPw3w2/iA1frW/+226UAMuwyHmS6teZYxaUfHvQew1xqBUTU/wYGTDRrKlVZ Pl1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:reply-to:subject:to:references:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language; bh=fAy8+Vw/xGsjLlHPCUUMNi6HhlwZb9KSKMUDSKBYNqU=; b=f+ioS0yHuX76LlrDcQZdUY7Ql0bDCC2oKb29l74CYIfucHdxV28JFj9rZqpE9hgv32 bwkJBrbl1A+tX84fryXDiNbsyKNu5gnvl0LGVVhjCQoq5W8YAjDUSvzO5SIgp/Vz3QpQ 8KAhEkdZ4A9zX7xfEcvE+dAJP9gidq3Mie7Om5f80pF7uz3O8gww1ClyqCUaaR9FRaj7 +I17vcdCI70IomEa1JCQ8PDWGukh0EPUc7/ANW8PrJye+8OK19FLqpiovBB5JCZliRh6 /ATtLP9aGbz66SZFcwwdXuZF4MC7abEi6IgXI15VVSPKVASw5e7+MNblDFIZVXpzWfls wyZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533d6AAdC0PX5AqA22TxM+XCIE+oL4Cx3DzS9xs57BH0aYrCDRTT bWcaEBlpKBFotJQ7+Hzr3Oo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCtDNRpQpKB1t5TWdGRBNYoYwup5qU/Sw9Nfnf7MmCP8bUrt6jIljajMcJBugsCumx/QADbQ== X-Received: by 2002:a37:5c84:: with SMTP id q126mr1315134qkb.21.1620856278360; Wed, 12 May 2021 14:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.7.123] ([99.241.212.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 26sm987072qtd.73.2021.05.12.14.51.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 12 May 2021 14:51:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave Collier-Brown X-Google-Original-From: Dave Collier-Brown Reply-To: dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: Organization: Index Exchange Message-ID: <6d93a3cf-7907-c50b-7903-79bd638b5766@indexexchange.com> Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 17:51:16 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------647EF0D5E5C08AB09E909A27" Content-Language: en-US Subject: Re: [Bloat] Terminology for Laypeople X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 21:51:18 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------647EF0D5E5C08AB09E909A27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "lag" is often understood by non-technical folks, as in "the lag between the time you step on the gas and the time the car actually speeds up". Some folks who've been exposed to video enough will know about "lag and jitter" (;-)) --dave On 2021-05-12 11:50 a.m., Ingemar Johansson S via Bloat wrote: > Hi > > Yes. "Idle latency" and "Working latency" make sense. > > Note however that if you think of idle latency as sparse ping, then these sparse ping can give unreasonably high values over cellular access (4G/5G). The reason is here mainly DRX which is a battery saving function in mobile devices. More frequent pings like every 20ms over the course of 100ms or so can give more correct values. > > /Ingemar > > >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 21:26:21 +0000 >> From: Greg White >> To: Jonathan Foulkes , "Livingood, Jason" >> >> Cc: bloat >> Subject: Re: [Bloat] Terminology for Laypeople >> Message-ID: <0A5DF790-7A71-4B84-A20B-559A5E0CE65F@cablelabs.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I recently heard Stuart Cheshire (sort of tongue-in-cheek) refer to “idle >> latency” as “the latency that users experience when they are not using their >> internet connection” (or something along those lines). >> >> I think terminology that reinforces that the baseline (unloaded) latency is not >> always what users experience, and that latency under load is not referring to >> some unusual corner-case situation, is good. So, I like “idle latency” and >> “working latency”. >> >> -Greg >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain --------------647EF0D5E5C08AB09E909A27 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

"lag" is often understood by non-technical folks, as in "the lag between the time you step on the gas and the time the car actually speeds up".

Some folks who've been exposed to video enough will know about "lag and jitter" (;-))

--dave 

On 2021-05-12 11:50 a.m., Ingemar Johansson S via Bloat wrote:
Hi

Yes. "Idle latency"  and "Working latency" make sense.

Note however that if you think of idle latency as sparse ping, then these sparse ping can give unreasonably high values over cellular access (4G/5G). The reason is here mainly DRX which is a battery saving function in mobile devices. More frequent pings like every 20ms over the course of 100ms or so can give more correct values.

/Ingemar



Message: 1
Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 21:26:21 +0000
From: Greg White <g.white@CableLabs.com>
To: Jonathan Foulkes <jf@jonathanfoulkes.com>, "Livingood, Jason"
	<Jason_Livingood@comcast.com>
Cc: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Bloat] Terminology for Laypeople
Message-ID: <0A5DF790-7A71-4B84-A20B-559A5E0CE65F@cablelabs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I recently heard Stuart Cheshire (sort of tongue-in-cheek) refer to “idle
latency” as “the latency that users experience when they are not using their
internet connection” (or something along those lines).

I think terminology that reinforces that the baseline (unloaded) latency is not
always what users experience, and that latency under load is not referring to
some unusual corner-case situation, is good.  So, I like “idle latency” and
“working latency”.

-Greg




      

      

      
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-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com |              -- Mark Twain

  


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