From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C63183B2A4 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 02:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id v15-v6so788796ljh.13 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 23:36:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=U/Y/r/wuS5kNgM/KvN1jZjuVJijT7gxZYNymz0xVgWk=; b=Z2bGdUeZIqsD8ldbpCnkp13Jkp/PK08DMwOGFpoEad1iUv9UNLBVm14AAWBy5Qfn19 b48LcEGPLbG9Xcr6v8co37Y4hKBWpJB+VxvEgyoObLgQF+1zhry0bA8MNQNaLhRCjwX2 LQn80l4vskr8hMlpz2skE8y9fAL04LWcPcMm4SEuWq8ul11qr2Ai0oV7ok6Qmx22+RrR uEVMXEBOfCqmBfHmQ09oimLY8hC++NvDo+TFDM8ikDG/h1P+fUUHm5VhXRQPC0OCdfNd 3pkhfMY1tI2BcFd36JrVRDxWoc7S0JOYEI8r3odcTeXhWYpS23sVzu1ZApe5NopnBcI9 ic0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=U/Y/r/wuS5kNgM/KvN1jZjuVJijT7gxZYNymz0xVgWk=; b=JLHqBqRbtXt6fPyMyAsr/J/EKHWAZp4XY+CJJCxRm+loJSTCila9Xd/gMatUPEJlXF v5EnyYCp8ISrxTnEcE8ht3nYYXte4vfaKf1Ss3zVFghCOcwapfuY+lEZdaWRCoyXmFcy NSz9l01DbLbuJKGD0HRndIN6WXsi1n6JDcKIOIut5i46oVg4gm11DH66JEkpzV+VBpQj SA8tJiNXGVSLkk1gEU/fjEGWbweqHLj9aRel3mkvewwCxHrLDb/8nt2p+49B+jRpeG6S RuydBXZtzx/qy5M+zMZKJxOVuPgMlagXuOxjksnZV4Jl8yef4Sw05L9dopuBK6GNmf6G SNzw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZ02Q15yBP4S5zS14GxyD0LgQljIcOCubOZmQUqg2HyceZmCZ6w wnNtl1uR9MyJ4HRGRwLwmrM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/Vz48KF/F1Bsh1G5qIHS0gAJ4k+s+uNcbpKDjbnR8U13e3lKhAcKQuBIYtlRVpB6uwiBGQC5w== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2909:: with SMTP id u9-v6mr336170lje.28.1543477009650; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 23:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan (83-245-236-220-nat-p.elisa-mobile.fi. [83.245.236.220]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b25sm162827lfa.96.2018.11.28.23.36.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 28 Nov 2018 23:36:49 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 09:36:47 +0200 Cc: Dave Taht , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7125B446-F2C4-45B3-B48C-8720B1E35776@gmail.com> References: <65EAC6C1-4688-46B6-A575-A6C7F2C066C5@heistp.net> <38535869-BF61-4FC4-A0FB-96E91CC4F076@ifi.uio.no> <87va4gwe74.fsf@taht.net> To: Mikael Abrahamsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Subject: Re: [Bloat] incremental deployment, transport and L4S (Re: when does the CoDel part of fq_codel help in the real world?) X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 07:36:51 -0000 > On 29 Nov, 2018, at 9:28 am, Mikael Abrahamsson = wrote: >=20 > This is one thing about L4S, ETC(1) is the last "codepoint" in the = header not used, that can statelessly identify something. If anyone sees = a better way to use it compared to "let's put it in a separate queue and = CE-mark it agressively at very low queue depths and also do not care = about re-ordering so a ARQ L2 can re-order all it wants", then they need = to speak up, soon. You are essentially proposing using ECT(1) to take over an intended = function of Diffserv. In my view, that is the wrong approach. Better = to improve Diffserv to the point where it becomes useful in practice. = Cake has taken steps in that direction, by implementing some reasonable = interpretation of some Diffserv codepoints. My alternative use of ECT(1) is more in keeping with the other = codepoints represented by those two bits, to allow ECN to provide more = fine-grained information about congestion than it presently does. The = main challenge is communicating the relevant information back to the = sender upon receipt, ideally without increasing overhead in the TCP/IP = headers. - Jonathan Morton