From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93AC43B29E for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2023 10:35:36 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1696084534; x=1696689334; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=RKu3KssvSYEtsHZ0MgdQU05qkR6DqD/clp1wklNtb4k=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=g+3LLh6YFZKfEjlN5249WOeGrOq6yAVFnhYcEm9aimEyPIhDp4MpRkjMD7mAGM35tHHUAvi9fMY phfnyvkqXhURr3HH/CMicn3aMmBKMS/ldh2pBrVcayXzmvYrK+UGmFcpCaQf6NlrBj78kLdR9jXDK DrdSzmgDX82QaiiK6So5aTTfIyxWVXYnPM51LUTVbLgo2Tx/ibKqyw+NmCI+Q1r4t9lXUB64J7BI8 B56RNkJT52JzM5xV/MTzDvPyWmIuDEVRITuOKroTsBP8SPX0MvHeelCECCDyBZDdQTdtmde2YaAIq 9pdzc+f2Ia4hMyl7oo5qTLPW9EQx+qVwXF+A== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([95.112.94.87]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MI5UD-1qssBF2fNH-00FFED; Sat, 30 Sep 2023 16:35:34 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 16:35:33 +0200 Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <71368884-D574-4E01-A4E5-B312E1B89730@gmx.de> References: <5so3r00n-31pn-14s7-7775-08731s3s551r@ynat.uz> <7508FE73-A154-4CBA-984C-748A80C5FFEC@gmail.com> <039490DA-48A7-4AE2-B00F-AA2A260FB747@gmail.com> <3F6D16C8-530E-4066-8B6A-C0644B3C2D2C@gmx.de> To: Jan Ceuleers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:qTN7f5Amqn0BJJzKzvOpHYZu0Et/K+2RImq+dyZPJLbcJDPIWbB PWNmnL67URO695NPJQbPDWLL+deSC4Ze5+xo3oUk9l9xAjk5lWxG9OQUoOKKwlSoLMktncy bkF63SCCmHB04g80pjgrFz0cQDfUzH++vz/RG0DJ08WWGAn0Yxq6lZEF6ZV+dHfaYVY5dMQ x6lSJnrDH6S1L2mIoxfWA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:TLkqqBnVVxo=;SUKM5I9v5sUEbpLEEEoGJDRBjbx x7Gqrgr1/n3+4+JxFvnlbj6ykoPbqtD7Sn6b14T5VsaqGDkRIbg8PvRPssqlrRTt3JtpiBMah SMxMWWdXItmJsBQWE4NR4U70q2GAqC2bKsHCI4LA+dqHAq9PzM3UaX5Bh5Rvycm7ot0kak0Vz TwrLTqI25bEhNTY1A2m1EBKgea1bYzAWAAuZq7C/tDOaz+6v0BprQXbBerfy6ndq4+smRJ0Us LjZwdV2j5AVN2zYADVk0ZjQIQuUexY4yBdTFGWSxlEn6TfhX3zR0+V5Jn9JL0Yf6dv8UNm+jS nlRqreMYtmsqLtoEFmdxfdw8iyqfNfJwBJsGhrrRKIFuwzAaHwotB/bPtnQBSIa4x6OFDxMPI w9azDnH7rpL1Na/rH+z3iXoVzWvwWwfApxAXVgNYmYxjv/cFmakLmibnyXCgbnuyDnd7VQlTT nob0LoWQnIOxJndlSNh1+1lTORNvpFnRo7B9ZoYO7KYWt8t/T6aQsAM4aqYmq/jwLdTRYI+Ve hjWyohYPaT7JCYlvpGahlhJh8KjTRzCUNbDlHyK1T4h7rxKM3QCGaq7VZLMjXXan6aerHYgeR 2gumRCV+qVF7ibPtivlW88NJmYZo6/UvJTE3WHIPkKqdkqFqM7ePJSe8H1e/ugKJyAtuokyet rKbowBza7TYsfRy9I2J+npfJ0CUhYAr7lITzHhRmIhF1B5kwP+fRfXDEM8Mf/7g1A5W7gkyek 9zD9+SquYvN3zIShsXbKr42ag2V5fgEVoBKlvyA2hcSuZta6vdpvkWxNpYMEyWKz9HhlbNM+V lOPVFAW/Kw96rZKThjBQCdQu6MO4v6jrHDG7kYYtKv7sjmG5W9qITSm3ENQqpqiCKLybfTqgq YxWybDOY9JVjyVq50CF7Bfl9eEdSZ1fovUA7tx7tF2ScbTTdybP36M2rh1Hbukm+//4DK3Q/j ey888aakEEbZQurwQK64hIYEBzI= Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] net neutrality back in the news X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 14:35:36 -0000 Hi Jan, > On Sep 30, 2023, at 16:28, Jan Ceuleers via Bloat = wrote: >=20 > On 30/09/2023 14:19, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote: >>=20 >> P.S.: Of course if we look close enough we surely can find = corner-cases where either the EU regulations or the translation into = national law result in less desirable outcomes, but "nothing is perfect" = and all in all the regulations seem to be "good enough". With the caveat = that explicitly excluding ISP interconnect from the regulations BEREC = essentially pointed the way for ISPs wanting to monetize their eye-balls = twice to do so via interconnects, but that only works for the 800 pound = gorillas and generally is not a game smaller ISPs can play. I do = understand why BEREC wants to stay out of the interconnection issue, as = this is rather complicated and the market seems to generally work = okay-ish (that is not badly enough to make intervention a hot-button = issue for voters and hence politicians). > EU Regulations have force of law in and of themselves; they need not = be > transposed into national law. That sets Regulations apart from > Directives: those do need to be transposed into national law. Having > said that many member states may adopt laws that implement = Regulations, > but in case of any differences between those national laws and the > Regulations in question the Regulations will prevail in the courts. [SM] Thanks for clearing this up! The regulation does punt a few = things to wards national regulatory agencies that requires local action = before being applicable like: Article 4 [...] 4. Any significant discrepancy, continuous or regularly recurring, = between the actual performance of the internet access service regarding = speed or other quality of service parameters and the performance = indicated by the provider of internet access services in accordance with = points (a) to (d) of paragraph 1 shall, where the relevant facts are = established by a monitoring mechanism certified by the national = regulatory authority, be deemed to constitute non-conformity of = performance for the purposes of triggering the remedies available to the = consumer in accordance with national law. where without action by the national regulatory agency to certify a = monitoring mechanism and where the remedies apparently need to be need = to be at least harmonized with local law. But not being a lawyer, I completely missed that differenve between = regulation and directive (I falsly assumed a directive would be of = higher legal priority than a regulation). Regards & Thanks again Sebastian > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat