From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x541.google.com (mail-ed1-x541.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::541]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA4F23B29E for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 03:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x541.google.com with SMTP id b10-v6so9770484eds.4 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 00:44:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heistp.net; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Lnucgm6z9ddiApoScBxmjDz/6nVka8Cb/1UGXR/W4VE=; b=SycSqGU0SmOJz08ldV9SYW85qjmbLqOnJzRUIkjlJKU/tAYaokC+JxYL6cbEmAxvkI p5tR5apaL0H8iyk/1XkJCTcHJLUoirfA3HdKtXvJsHk7ebDwMnqxd+TndjYTRadIFhYA EKpPnKWCuIHjn6vU4c0W1HKVOZGqalan299ZQUHJ2pAsMBb4rLfU1+sW/lYFSjuhE/+8 iB8ryWHH93BB6buyYYh7jR/GC3HI6fNTGJgL8B4p7cg4p4J2XotNBS8t43FnsYWC9AAS LVNlj+VUuet4VJIxa2j9PknO6/ukL7B7rlUIXzF9POtBDFxAnWuKQWfe5+jIuZnA1hrc Cczw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Lnucgm6z9ddiApoScBxmjDz/6nVka8Cb/1UGXR/W4VE=; b=bYdGskE2/VcCdc2icqNDMRVQeW4kI50uKlHDjml0P6pHVinZicJ4lJYlP9pol0Fdsy PxGx9UU7rosdKTnyXlQ9gbAoUs8AI/3Espxr3+oDu+nC+qfMJZ9Q0bMj6A5ifBPjgd7I CFeSdD5ppy+VmeLhqiW9KtyEYrRweDYx6R/KFddaFEr3hHZM51HKgH9xgoA+V7j25Cmk TNXSg5UAq/1oAIS4c/nYjWdb8SQELoQZvGmAHcN+CTnkEIB6zUeuTsFEbwXm0Pjy0WX4 A/XLw8vnfu4xZasH7WAioaPjJft9435OjDwzVvTdh9ajoKIxy3+1POVv/UaxZNREleXO WtRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51CRvhnfGh9JMI6POIGAqLPyMZ11Wf06tgdpH+qIUnjKz7hUJ7PH d0ud09spgfkLXai3npJUmbAhSA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdYKShrcoB+O38eLHIZgVBvSC0KwmmW5TXFT1W+KkK3DZ6Re8gRHVbgqL7Pe+L3N2N8gUGQOOw== X-Received: by 2002:a50:984b:: with SMTP id h11-v6mr15530536edb.26.1535355868833; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 00:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tron.luk.heistp.net (h-1169.lbcfree.net. [185.193.85.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w20-v6sm9402435edc.12.2018.08.27.00.44.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Aug 2018 00:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Pete Heist In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 09:44:26 +0200 Cc: bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <760F79E7-EA45-46B9-AA0F-7300D0242E44@heistp.net> References: To: Dave Taht X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Subject: Re: [Bloat] debloats/day metric? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 07:44:29 -0000 Not sure how to answer exactly, but I=E2=80=99m interested in some way = to measure bloat more directly both instantaneously and over time. My = current plan for instantaneous measurement is to modify irtt to send = request pairs, one given strict priority at the bottleneck and one best = effort, then measure the difference between the two (for both RTT and = OWD). Assuming this yields useful data, maybe there is a long-term stat that = could be derived from it that indicates how much bloat there is for a = given link, or how well it has been mitigated. For interest, here are abbreviated cake stats from 12 hours at the camp = (~40Mbit p2p WiFi), so double those for an approximate daily stat: Egress: Tin 0 pkts 12327019 bytes 3838819739 way_inds 903650 way_miss 261326 drops 929 marks 8 Ingress: Tin 0 pkts 28783116 bytes 36517120801 way_inds 2031504 way_miss 250153 drops 12648 marks 24 > On Aug 25, 2018, at 6:57 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >=20 > I'm always casting about for some simple metric, some simple phrase, > that we can use to describe what we're about. Lately - without > formally defining it mathematically as yet - I've been talking about > "badwidth" - what you get from your typical ISP - and "goodwidth", > what debloating does - which originally sprang from me typo-ing > "bandwidth". >=20 > More recently I tried combatting the perception that packet > drops/marks are "bad", by renaming them to "debloats/day". >=20 > Codel kicks in rarely, but I'm pretty sure every time it does it saves > on a bit of emotional upset and jitter for the user. For example I get > about 3000 drops/ecn marks a day one inbound 100mbit/20mbit campus > link (about 12,000 on the wifi links), and outbound a mere ~100 or so. >=20 > But: Every one of those comforts me 'cause I feel like I'm saving a > ~500ms latency excursion for all the users of this (640ms badwidth > down/280ms up) comcast link. >=20 > I am kind of curious as to y'all's regular "debloats/day"?