From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C66023B2A4 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 15:14:44 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1614284080; bh=RsfVrV2lTJUPSAHuRbOxvEPwCMxmzVdY/Mc9xwhyOPI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=G6EpfEtYrt4Uj4ywC3rfAZx0j5vhHVQdDuS/TuLiW0wWvEPLNOnTgfXWUCDem4yya PnTN6gsBB6O5yDfsxa7HzF/qoSs+0wwnVAGDKh2H/LTUb8t0B/RiUABVzmKr9VtQXq a8gamYGjJrLUt3/9xbMS91nG49MRXcLX9XE3eoUg= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.42.229] ([77.8.105.209]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MO9z7-1lQjqg3UWv-00ObCd; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:14:39 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:14:38 +0100 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , sam@waveform.com, bloat , contact@lakelandappliedsciences.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7635C4DC-33F0-44C5-A909-6B81A463FE3F@gmx.de> References: <5CB9F40C-5FFB-4ABC-A184-A3C3A29D2413@gmx.de> To: Sina Khanifar X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Yrd22wHKJbgokaIGBshDVz4goKjZ+oTtBlB6erdLKxE0CUqa0Qx 4g5VybVPrX+ZeCw+emfihmyoLchH72/IPaANy/v8VUKh1D03xndIelXigVTT8YvpYwIK63Y gUujxj2rRaRtOfBnpLQEYaMoeIPk0KVLWWZ7NwJMZHs3AWlaNrKgkkmblulEbtTXwFu+Mya oXkLzNiRAOcx0gIv7B+wA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:e+/60fXzOu0=:gcT1UYNjJ8PquDccbKb+37 lKSsWsjWXlCWmiLlLJyPA0o5RreW22paxzC4Skz9bH2Tx6MQGnRZ6aMPo4mkAbDa+Ro5egmhI ZT4DXNTw5gjWwoS2BeDqoxBZvoZ8wd5nzDeHs/8U4Ocvs013I+o5KUP1xld4i2YgbqECydxo4 GMwoYBrZEg+clbUSSu1sDhYtA8n6voGdFRA+eLBexiPLgZnfSmAoR65lJxDzJd6wazY7azmen wPmoyG4EQHxXojQChofKX6pbhMUYsCTV3nrWs0U3RMypeoHBp8lTOLdo8Dc6Zd8lhmRxps8k+ GGFCIn18kPq5X1JDBB06cCd9k3/crcm/lNWZcEAqBEEIqR8y9DSYimhRRzef75zFnvhPhZ56+ agmb1V9+cnIaeQZQoRRlPJIjIUGsXXIrBxkZKUoEmWKTaE5zfKnGGyFHcPMiGgiFYHtUGb3bu cbj9PcoiqY8AOxBymvpdioGZxB6iB11QosPCHTQ7q6qS3NbpIGTqkk8FWf+XPmwr7ry7TMj3j tvauyRtQ6r6YvLLV+RiMWKjpb5wE93J4kl8UHKFLQr08cFCiXZJ4TaOzLPD796SxmHdpV7Nen 7vtBDYhERCgbCtJNunj0UgXAFRoDnbDQtEBe90SDRxwUVo/JA4WMSFBRChG+zWWYE1LE07lm/ M9wf/391Oz+s+ix9++Wo1WptpKQhRBA9tCxKq/yOMSwY/55Tej0xIkNqTw/SMBN3cQ2M8md0R 1AZH3GGaVyuP7VmwMOvmJtatSdvDiQHPPfBVt26+j4PY/HjPFkepGgsjDhZHpeCFTzD0pzD+Y PK8j0EWonDmwMgC3U4kdw6GmM91sIuXXD9M7hILNWBciey0jqFdNn2fw1iuE6Zx1KD5wtkmGx Pt/BlSu5OhpQ19jWGNkw== Subject: Re: [Bloat] Updated Bufferbloat Test X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:14:45 -0000 Hi Sina, let me try to invite Daniel Lakeland (cc'd) into this discussion. He is = doing tremendous work in the OpenWrt forum to single handedly help = gamers getting the most out of their connections. I think he might have = some opinion and data on latency requirements for modern gaming. @Daniel, this discussion is about a new and really nice = speedtest (that I already plugging in the OpenWrt forum, as you probably = recall) that has a strong focus on latency under load increases. We are = currently discussion what latency increase limits to use to rate a = connection for on-line gaming Now, as a non-gamer, I would assume that gaming has at least similarly = strict latency requirements as VoIP, as in most games even a slight = delay at the wrong time can direct;y translate into a "game-over". But = as I said, I stopped reflex gaming pretty much when I realized how badly = I was doing in doom/quake. Best Regards Sebastian > On Feb 25, 2021, at 21:01, Sina Khanifar wrote: >=20 >> [SM] Maybe the solution would be to increase the frequency of the RTT = measures and increase the quantile somewhat, maybe 90 or 95? >=20 > I think we scaled back the frequency of our RTT measurements to avoid > CPU issues, but I think we can increase them a little and then use > 95th percentile latency with a cutoff of 400ms or so as the check vs > warning condition for videoconferencing, and VOIP. That would be great, one of the nicest features of the = dslreports test is the high resolution bufferbloat measurement. But = since you mention CPU issues, I have the impression that the HR probes = on dslreports occasionally show spikes that might be more related to the = browser and endhosts CPU than to the router; that said the bulk of the = probes seem to be dominated by the router. >=20 > We could also maybe use the 95th percentile cutoff for gaming? I'm not > sure what the limits/cutoff should be there, though. Would love some > suggestions. I hope Daniel will chime in, other than that, purely based on = gut-feeling, I think 95% makes sense for a reaction gated applications? Best Regards Sebastian >=20 > On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 2:51 AM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Sina, >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Feb 25, 2021, at 06:56, Sina Khanifar wrote: >>>=20 >>> Thanks for the feedback, Dave! >>>=20 >>>> 0) "average" jitter is a meaningless number. In the case of a = videoconferencing application, what matters most is max jitter, where = the app will choose to ride the top edge of that, rather than follow it. = I'd prefer using a 98% number, rather than 75% number, to weight where = the typical delay in a videoconfernce might end up. >>>=20 >>> Both DSLReports and Ookla's desktop app report jitter as an average >>> rather than as a max number, so I'm a little hesitant to go against >>> the norm - users might find it a bit surprising to see much larger >>> jitter numbers reported. We're also not taking a whole ton of = latency >>> tests in each phase, so the 98% will often end up being the max >>> number. >>> [...] >>=20 >> [SM] Maybe the solution would be to increase the frequency of the RTT = measures and increase the quantile somewhat, maybe 90 or 95? >>=20 >> Best Regards >> Sebastian