From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D97DC3CB41 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2023 05:02:59 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1702375377; x=1702980177; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=fhJUajMK/TLQZ/0F7r4qIo4l4NJiyHlphHIVEjNaJYM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References: To; b=FAt9tFYe4zZAanBALZ8+K1hOzHkB+Y+JKJmXcqdu4ZXwB9ebu/vGqys47CQarD0H ibiUFBqt7X2h0/K7oQOJE8vhW8+0VoGobVjVcNY6JQFq2fI4EMH6KHLsgXyt8AhRK 11OSqFv+1k/hB2WmWQxQ0Txr67/AgdKyGkA5dH5Jx9iZVRwxTR0Q5Q7jZcTyhSadO HwDBFT3lCgjnKOJP8El+q0xHx/DLSs8/+ZpQDwvIB6Vq3X60jOJgKsRk9x0Pwt43M nRRKn929VV5P+6ogH0/5KruCNZftJ1oRz6R/cM4pkosLKVdhXKWDcimyRTlBxsl3Y TJl+go+7C2wVO9XZ8g== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Md6Mj-1rn9Ig1pmV-00aH7V; Tue, 12 Dec 2023 11:02:57 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 11:02:56 +0100 Cc: bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <797DAF0A-2E8D-4F7C-94E3-8CDEC4455584@gmx.de> References: <826a0d77-b6b8-423d-a094-93d75840fa90@rjmcmahon.com> <4C2CA220-A7EF-4198-BE6C-A2FC979A1F8D@gmx.de> To: Frantisek Borsik X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:pdCLCkwrKMhTWcGPR8IqnIfVtcKvhEVwRaTYm4gtT9tWTQ/OEJO rix1cXRH3HjyRdGld51q+SN82a2vCH0r2qwfPk5PDf138IY7Nq23Rnk4ryrlClsGbuh8qTQ rP+TH4FURNuo7iYM8CQcm4+6IjX3JmwMqZp98WpBhemQqGZySSoB28qk0/rQRX8YcXhJYie Eo1Y17NbZA3H2qwBc0OLA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:+dn4WcadlD4=;RpwvJbw+MjFUDUEJMRrqhE5U+8v DvUmpNpPj7ozSjpFnMvoZzig9p91nkka+SLnpq+6Zse5L/b3V36sH/1DHw505tCVqvBkWAmy4 AxSnLA4N6b/caL+pfX2lJL8KxcTrfzenq2mIxiVCshvvZDOHCD2CHMFgG54o7NaiiPttrcKBt aQvuwIICqzqKpKwgemVmrKsPZ6Ko2Ck08frtFfwTJJ7Lyh0J4RFidnSQh7NV3n8ipN6M3KOMS TGO8rDa8x75EKbbjqM7WgZmD0DjngwI7hv1sAPnckMK4LqnBUDB1SJMVd/5ZtjOiAMXc5Zttq cBi/OAJqt35POAxrSpj3+rzL0tzVQLPUrxRwCg+lq75CXfbglGbo2YAd+KaqbNFuTlZfKE1TP 95fPqzBmCOwxuEByJkv5rMJVuvtd5qlXLviIAN7EIW0ZrNaXqd7BFUABcOguzwFfyaxPWRH57 zPcKyb7H1cbBxn2/QFn4ad6kFxvtBj64efW4LBvnTTQy3MsYdOIhi3PqZdAUaR9Z4JlloKmo8 j4u07O9ARDSteliETXPrDPHrvV/oJqG0itE8DnMRoxBinF95fPRGda6K+uULBFxYtTyUm4bsZ Kdo6L0aVc5UK212wm53I2EEsx5snfy0ldjWWJ12fRi4gtCghWFOpHlUUksgUw/qnhCwP+r9f2 FrzLXzBj2jZCLmSkAnC9wCgH8l3alDbXF2pXkw0j3NtPUWHhfekI0cwhHUCFzBASjUxLkEUZg snrhwYUFnTCJ0DoBL820a+q/ETPGzLNk3hN6gKt/tmnQV497KxuzZINCPHfci7NzaWdqCX8cL peFvTrMwDtdshsO6TN4twDt/95rDMlfGvVGqBwJvYRVdLNWDEgrOnIDvGKm66lsge0wy4fqan x3ewr4HsuQmAXMUBx5s9DMUdr3CMQn/rkqOVR5tKUskrQsxqEkP/iJdUsmtffDt9s1vKGf3/D gOy4QZwtkPF9Qg3kGKTc7aXDlz0= Subject: Re: [Bloat] [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 10:03:00 -0000 Hi Frantisek, > On Dec 11, 2023, at 20:33, Frantisek Borsik = wrote: >=20 > Hello Sebastian, >=20 > So you have shared that "L$S bible" :-) I even have some sympathy for his stance, by all means, flow = rate fairness is rarely optimal and with sufficient information it seems = almost always "easy" to do better. It is just that I consider the "with = sufficient information" part the tricky bit. A random node in the = internet can reliably use 4-tuples to segregate "flow-aggregates"* and = arbitrate/equalize capacity between them, which while rarely optimal = will almost guarantee that no flow is going to be starved (either none = or all ;) ) in a sense is is not the most optimal, but the least = pessimal policy. Anything else requires robust and reliable information = delivery to the nodes having to make decisions which might work well in = controlled environment, but not realistically in the open internet. And = just to en-passant kill the "cost fairness" idea pushed in the paper, = that requires a "notion" of user over which to aggregate and equalize = the cost metric, something an arbitrary node will not have... TO cite: " =E2=80=A2 Allocate congestion among the bits sent by = economic entities (cost fairness)" good luck for an intermediate node to = aggregate by economic entities in a robust and reliable fashion... At which point we can safely put that specific idea to rest by virtue of = being unrealistic...=20 *) This is relatively save to do, as these same tuples are also used in = making routing decisions so are not all that easy to game arbitrarily = and hence require little to no trust from the intermedate node basing = decisions on this information. > with the bloat list and I do believe that even people at NN list = should read it: = https://pbg.cs.illinois.edu/courses/cs598fa09/readings/b07.pdf >=20 > Heck, everyone in the field should read it. Food for thought, = certainly. Respectfully, I think nobody should have to read that (unless = they want to of course), it is way too long and misleading given the = fact that it is a phantasy, not a realistic solution for the internet. = Also I have been using flow queueing schedulers now for roughly a decade = and can from that experience state, this solution is "good enough" for = decent internet experience and simply works (at least on my link for my = traffic mix). Again, I keep my response of NNagain, as I still am not = convinces folks over there want to read more about this topic. > Btw, https://www.understandinglatency.com today was great, hope more = of you join us tomorrow. Jason will be giving an update on "L4S Field = Trial Experiences", also Stuart "It's latency, stupid!" of Apple will be = speaking and I'm looking forward to my compatriot, Marek Pesta, with = CDN77, adding more knowledge to the CDN field. >=20 > All the best, >=20 > Frank >=20 > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >=20 > =20 >=20 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >=20 > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=20 >=20 > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >=20 > Skype: casioa5302ca >=20 > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 4:04=E2=80=AFPM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > Hi Frantisek, >=20 > still keeping NNagain off-list, no need to infect yet another list = with my L4S aversion ;) >=20 > > On Dec 11, 2023, at 11:18, Frantisek Borsik = wrote: > >=20 > > =E2=80=A6and I=E2=80=99m adding NN again, because: > >=20 > > No matter which evil end game is actually the one, it will create a = quite a havoc. >=20 > Not so sure about that, my expectancy is mostly that L4S is = going to fizzle out simply because it over-promised and under-delivers. = And fizzling out does not make impressive havoc... >=20 > > Seeing, for example Netflix, participating in L4S trail (they said = it was for their cloud gaming, >=20 > But if we look at the DualQ from the outside we see a priority = scheduler with little to no organic bulk traffic (yet?) so using this = for any latency sensitive traffic is tempting. The bigger question for = me is, does Netflix' cloud gaming traffic actually respond gracefully to = CE marks as expected for an L5S flow, or if it is using NQB instead is = it following the eligibility recommendations for NQB traffic? That is, = is this traffic playing along the rules or not? (One of the problems = with L4S is that it defines a set of requirements for traffic and then = fails to enforce/police these requirements, making them pretty = irrelevant, but I digress). >=20 >=20 > > while at IETF 118) is in my mind the same like seeing a capitalist, = an entrepreneur selling a rope to a bloodthirsty communist that want to = create a noose to hang him on it :-) but if one don=E2=80=99t see/hear = evil=E2=80=A6there is no hope. >=20 > I see less diabolic evil in L4S and more ideologically* driven = mediocrity... >=20 > Regards > Sebastian >=20 >=20 > *) Hard to read = https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=3Drep1&type=3Dpdf&doi=3D6e736= 4c67c13fa991c63292b281fac61dfcf40e0 "Flow Rate Fairness: Dismantling a = Religion" as anything but ideologically driven... >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > All the best, > >=20 > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > >=20 > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=20 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > >=20 > >=20 > > On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 at 10:52 AM, Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > > Hi Frantisek, > >=20 > > steering this to the bloat list, as I have a hunch my response might = not be appropriate for the wide audience in NNagain even though this can = have NN ramifications. > >=20 > >=20 > > > On Dec 11, 2023, at 10:50, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain = wrote: > > >=20 > > > Top story on HN: > > >=20 > > > h++ps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D38597744 > > >=20 > > > My pick for top comment: > > >=20 > > > > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > A possible L4S end game? =F0=9F=98=81=20 > >=20 > > Unlikely, as that would e.g. violate EU directive 2015/2120 too = blatantly. My take is more subtle, L4S is essentially a technique that = only works well for short RTTs and the end game is to make datacenter = space inside eyeball-ISPs much more desirable and hence yielding higher = prices... L4S effectively increases TCPs existing RTT bias* and hence = makes long range L4S connections undesirable/under-performing, and that = implies that content providers that want to use L4S will need to get = their servers/CDNs close to the eye-balls. But hey, I would love to be = wrong and ISPs jus do this out of the goodness of their hearts... (only = then I would politely ask the to deploy a flow queueing AQM instead of = DualQ, as that in one swoop will solve a ship-load of L4S problems). > >=20 > > Regards > > Sebastian > >=20 > >=20 > > *) L4S argues that this is not an increase, but that due to removing = traditional TCP's excess queueing it just reveals TCPs inherent RTT = bias; IMHO that is a bull shit argument since the root cause is not = important, what matters is that with L4S RTT bias becomes measurably = worse. > >=20 > >=20 > > P.S.: I think my mail provider marks outgoing mails with too many = links as SPAM, so I need to make the URLs invisible, and I believe = replacing the t's in h t t p with plus signs does the trick...=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > All the best, > > >=20 > > > Frank > > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > >=20 > > > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=20 > > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain = wrote: > > > Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push = agenda for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief = that my algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though.=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Bob > > > On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain = wrote: > > > I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a = trend to > > > use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of = all > > > other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race = ends > > > badly. > > >=20 > > > Best regards, > > > Sauli > > >=20 > > > On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain = wrote: > > > Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general = public, really > > > - it=E2=80=99s an article in The Verge :-) > > >=20 > > > But yeah. Here=E2=80=99s something they should address: > > >=20 > > > h++ps://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings > > >=20 > > > In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest = L4S > > > problem: > > > = h++ps://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-= activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > All the best, > > >=20 > > > Frank > > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > >=20 > > > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain < > > > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > >=20 > > > About L4S > > >=20 > > > = h++ps://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed= -bandwidth > > >=20 > > > It says something about their target audience that they feel they = need to > > > explain bytes vs bits. > > >=20 > > > Thanks, > > > --MM-- > > > Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and = use force > > > to apply it to others. > > >=20 > > > Matt Mathis (Email is best) > > > Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must = call. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Nnagain mailing list > > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Nnagain mailing list > > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nnagain mailing list > > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Nnagain mailing list > > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >=20 >=20