From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F11AA3B29E for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2018 19:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.128.56.3] ([221.162.103.114]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lvkwm-1fuD0w1A3Y-017Xd1; Fri, 24 Aug 2018 01:36:03 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 08:35:55 +0900 Cc: Jan Ceuleers , bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7D711CA2-892C-4D0B-AE68-31703EBBBF3E@gmx.de> References: <66e2374b-f998-b132-410e-46c9089bb06b@gmail.com> <360212B1-8411-4ED0-877A-92E59070F518@gmx.de> To: Mikael Abrahamsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:IYnT5Z0FmTFzVBKFdYjWgr2S2PVitmfH5RY3K86ngFqruHwIQSs FiYkNQ3u/kYj6J7cKZlrEzEYE8Q7O3X4HPPBmAy/VykynP94lIz9iHc5cK66wGsFLdIi5/q 9TVqRRJrf+vAXG0Rlxd275833ji6OJCk3ProEEn1u6wy3YvNhsB3+e+hDo5wOxaDu8BUWi1 Xitwb5evUnNv7oUbnmBsg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:UGdLvcX7ZgI=:kbls5Cqd0Zm8Gh9u6o+dVN xCqoxjCSdO1h4KVSlq9ioCjT1CHMjuegL9o7PD7ptNLF+hWELmMUngSkaaU3tfxcnpbkoXgK4 fnVfEYbIsKZ+6L/S/q3ag4mEY2p6Brkfn+VZK5qpy3L3LPO3cm3epjQrwe0FjXeCTyrjuLtRi fdowJfdvp3TdEIBDnsPPrfuZvz6jT3uwVzqvdB2tHTPn5/vsjbL4lpJGkR6+UjYox8qKNs92G CW2SZ40Up4fnajlKpaYvSnKfzlk4P0s24NDUDINPFVJT8FdvdMtwb4MDKDytv8S01Cqd7nYhW H6sE1JJvAWF0trJvzRI/Uo8OvXvaJxXYv4vBD89pncuO2cvos6BDpZWQ8JX7SieVp/zo+R2dN X00hMTQ9wdjBCoYeL35HFl6MoU/WPlkA7scbBhgHBOqMOkSm6mbUhoUXUNgqT5tcEVuq2L0qT bvaujQeQ+HFl1EZ47rNmbeAuF0M7pTBVUB7q4TtmpWiSyeWGRT9Q34O/zFltryPnh9q0fapKl 1k1kFrCUTzYMCrkbfqnRMy0BusWm3W/xOor3xnranVg2Af+bhhbcu/tJNVWY91lZsFQB2lX8M mSZiK5QGcPhf/z6RrFULm2L9f1lkpt6ONY5RxOwdtI3W4Ey7U0bsu86oAvdQ932kdwAkNqLxy BP4DbDHoMyNGIRAzGyv7v1b3bfYP831Xp5NJ36j4eqD21SbAMTR2XqBOcwIx8RV/64U2KxKSl A3qRqU/mUc/6M/PKjKAZIQSBVcCs5DauH8qMMDrZURIs4V2/oEScSOw7iyBRWYfchQXOnchmU 0UXZsLI Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] beating the drum for BQL X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 23:36:07 -0000 Dear Mikael, > On Aug 24, 2018, at 00:32, Mikael Abrahamsson = wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 23 Aug 2018, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >=20 >> router should be able to handle at least the sold plan's bandwidth = with its main CPU...) >=20 > There is exactly one SoC on the market that does this, and that's = Marvell Armada 385, and it hasn't been very successful when it comes to = ending up in these kinds of devices. It's mostly ended up in NASes and = devices such as WRT1200AC, WRT1900ACS, WRT3200AC. Intersting question, how will the intel grx750 perform = (https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/smart-home/connected-home/anywan-= grx750-home-gateway-brief.html) after all that is a SoC with a dual core = atom CPU with up to 2.5 GHz frequency? >=20 >> Sure doing less/ a half asses job is less costly than doing it = right, but in the extreme not doing the job at all saves even more = energy ;). And I am not sure we are barking up the right tree here, it = is not that all home CPE are rigorously optimized for low power and = energy saving... my gut feeling is that the only optimizing principle is = cost for the manufacturer/OEM and that causes underpowered CPU that are = packet-accerlerated"-doped to appear to be able to do their job. I might = be wrong though, as I have ISP internal numbers on this issue. >=20 > The CPU power and RAM/flash has crept up a lot in the past 5 years = because other requirements in having the HGW support other applications = than just being a very simple NAT44+wifi router. That matches my observation as well, people seem to want to = concentrate more functionality at the one device that needs to run 24/7 = instead of using multiple independent devices (and I do not want to = blame them, even though I believe from a robustness perspective it would = be better to not concentrate everything in the routing/firewall device). >=20 > Cost is definitely an optimization, and when you're expected to have a = price-to-customer including software in the 20-40 EUR/device range, then = the SoC can't cost much. There has also been a lot of vendor lock-in. Sure, but my ISP charged 4 EUR per month for the DSL-router that = adds up to 12*2*4 =3D 96 EUR over the 2 years contract duration and to = 12*5*4 =3D 240 over my renting duration; assuming that my ISP does not = need to make a profit on this device (after all I am renting this to be = able to consume internet and telephone from them) that is considerably = more that 20-40 EUR. This is especially farcical since until a few years = ago the dsl-routers have been given for "free" and when they switched to = mandatory renting the baseplan price was not reduced by the same amount. = I guess what I want to convey is while cost is imprtant it is not a goo = d excuse to distribute underpowered devices.... >=20 > But now speeds are creeping up even more, we're now seeing 2.5GE and = 10GE platforms, which require substantial CPU power to do forwarding. Well, it is all swell if a router delivers 2.5/5/10 Gbps on the = LAN side, but a) I know only few households that would profit from that = and b) at that speeds short-comings of a router become even more obvious = and c) bandplans to actually feed such a beast from the wan side seem = expensive enough that the customer should also be able to pay for a = competent router (one can get intel based multicore atom boards at the = same price point as the high-end homerouters at ~250EUR). > The Linux kernel is now becoming the bottleneck in the forwarding, not = even on a 3GHz Intel CPU is it possible to forward even 10GE using the = normal Linux kernel path (my guess right now is that this is due to = context switching etc, not really CPU performance). That is a bridge to cross once we reach it, I doubt that we will = realistically reach 10 Gbps home internet access for the masses soon. >=20 > Marvell has been the only one to really aim for lots of CPU = performance in their SoC, there might be others now going the same path = but it's also a downside if the CPU becomes bogged down with packet = forwarding when it's also expected to perform other tasks on behalf of = the user (and ISP). As stated above there is an argument to concentrate non core = router functionality to another device (like one of those NAS devices = that can also share a printer) All that said, I believe that your opinion is far closer to the real = world and positions of the ISPs, so I expect things stay as they are, = but I cab dream can't I ;) ... Best Regards Sebastian >=20 > --=20 > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se