From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F12303CB37 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2023 09:10:32 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1697548230; x=1698153030; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=d2Tu55RZYV/9hjKut6ujr4Eb4jED9KTviL0h2rPNw4U=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References: To; b=UtDmrKT+Knd2VZYI9T6P71YVT24WV3XWBcLBrQStTS1kWMCdRvZKGPglx9jmNWzj +prszPCMK+nRD8w1pc5SXiE92nCFQkZrkSrLtqEnP0sDGVH8S9wBoag2VphlgJepV WnYtzxgcYAl6TQYkCOx8W03L9TycetWU9rmFyJVq+fCVLq57titC+pcK7I8zLrdVS jk34DIY8vKaXuUrrAPzD7MXB/BtldHkvZcaZDX5RYBrgtkgqNK4g4y7ynmv9eGx38 E04WsDXDEjC6/0FHzh4DH5TpVJLS/YHvay35UioYhjFVvNamUu9H35K71Y67JtY9t hKQZjwCe/QDgiclRWQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MAwXh-1qi3Xb3Lez-00BM4p; Tue, 17 Oct 2023 15:10:30 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <68901251-6DC5-4996-94E8-BE4DF60916AD@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 15:10:29 +0200 Cc: bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <82FFA796-FE92-43D8-9D9F-4BC78B455580@gmx.de> References: <68901251-6DC5-4996-94E8-BE4DF60916AD@gmail.com> To: Rich Brown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Xytiz8Vqxe4AtpUFLU5RYm+qCJjz8CZsEUNgO+5ZiNUuzm7CMEL ADcPDpISb54Nvw7HASYgIehy3fn6JpZe80hYBbsYp+LE9sqepsDxJLqmFlCPrS5N5JKUf/v i6Tgz2UZbyM7SGiaeqK5YxYF2BAHUI4/HBav5beUJP64YAL5fQMYXhwhsWbqNSRRIDpdZj8 jzWRBkLkS6Ke/Gk3oBaQA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:5/yZ0Lv5tBo=;zwHAKI3EI2CwWJxCSwpyDiypcC9 V/PuYANBjllDJH0P35eEbAuyNO4Rw7peY+vPbekMmb0aD2E1UGvxXtmm2Bvsk6jJY1UvlFlSk +0Av15Eogxf43fdUb1c9Bk4Srn20fGfX429YGAmh44rcBStXwo+AZs3oJAp1jjje6K5ga/SvU YMxJLlGSproWtlW7QvQ5mH0UgvdeO1Or106kxJEZxN6k2GtrhJT+awt9PXTXd6624+gYo/ic1 zFRrAWTLgfmrgwA34AExhDXrSlVBF1xwLOaPZmBt1dCATRFSx4jS4+8c8wce/izeViSqp2Xsy 2vN0o+sXftcp6Efi6Bxzcf2h7kBHHbaNzq4+boViHnpjxyVKLCDnU+a6a7bNFOPMnFm327tVv BK9dDDNxTc5jOIyg3uMPJBxUZsyN/zReyGEdxJqspIJasm0syD6BiB/UYJYmh+y62ZH/9F5e7 x7cHHaaz2YsyvJqA8OX6pzjZL/K7Oh4UE5/tdh4sivWIp3gkhVWAlYg42V0AtjRld/L9ZgPET 6pIaHqSOMtMAblhaWRO5hsXu8tNzkMLUkdgk99Emu74+q/hNWQKecu3n0S6sIKp0403quj+t1 /Mqd6LY3BIS2Bm06+yq47i6juWzypj2EEk6SXKciz8tUS6yCaWlKVwBUGQHp41IBcPt1Ihj8y rNPLJ0Sb/BNKWP/J9dTlZhjCK2luzc7H3zt5lk2vaylQ2IX001W/qRsErcqupBZw58Sj1FoQH aUl4KihK3m5aCETFnsEBDDWSMvMu36mfpakfZmMXv4440UtBxv//C1AVRhhFarqt5SHBANf7u TDz4OTcAodc/dE+zJyd5bzO1e5EJny7uwXXAim7jg3fnQf1AD06OVyS7S6wZqeGl56tzJ8yzh IY74utTMGUZ0JWe6RTjQ4bY/70euR4B7t/ecpAJOGzesFOvf4F+eOdmkDHjAPdGY35wNfiW7Z 7p+wE4rzFmw97aShr4MrjfujrHw= Subject: Re: [Bloat] Best approach for debloating Airbnb host? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 13:10:33 -0000 Hi Rich, > On Oct 17, 2023, at 14:39, Rich Brown via Bloat = wrote: >=20 > I stayed in an Airbnb rental last week. It was nicely appointed with a = very gracious host who lived in the other half of the home. They had = decent internet from xfinity - I was getting 20mbps/5mpbs. >=20 > But.. they have bad bufferbloat. I was on a Zoom call and occasionally = people would sound like Darth Vader. I busted out a ping test to 8.8.8.8 = and sure enough, latency spiked from a nominal 10-20 msec to 2500 msec = and occasionally over 4000 msec. [SM] Maybe good to occasionally get a dose of the "common" = internet experience to not forget how much we can achieve and how many = networks are still feeling/behaving worse than they need to. > I had to check out before I had a chance to mention it to the Airbnb = host. And I'll probably leave it alone. But I'm still wondering - if I = wanted to evangelize: >=20 > 1. What would I say? I know I don't want to blurt out, "your network = has bufferbloat". That sounds worse than the cooties :-) I imagine that = I'd mumble something about the Zoom call occasionally sounding like = Darth Vader, and that I'm a network professional and recognize the = symptom, and that there's a technical fix for it. I'd probably pause to = see if their eyes lit up ("Oh, that happens to us all the time...") = before proceeding. And then... [SM] I am terrible at such things, as I am not a people person, = but I think that this approach, casual conversation touching a few = topics and see whether it touches any pain points is a good one. No = matter how bad the network if the users do not notice it will be a hard = sell, especially with "strangers". What might help is to have a travel = router prepared that can be plugged in via ethernet (and after a quick = visit to the sqm-config) and used on the spot to demonstrate things = (even though doing a video conference on the spot or trusting strangers = to add gear to your network both seem awkward). > 2. What would I recommend? Obviously, inserting something with cake = into the mix would help a lot. Even if they were willing to let me = examine their entire network (Comcast router, Apple Airport in our = Airbnb unit, other router?) I have no idea what kind of tar baby I would = be touching. I don't want to become their network admin for the rest of = time. [SM] This is why maybe a demo unit would be helpful, but then we = would need something with commercial grade support to point them at? = Maybe evenroute's IQrouter (I like their approach, but I never tested = it). > I know Dave T=C3=A4ht recommends that you help your local coffee shop = debloat their network. But that's a place that you develop a personal = relationship and you visit often enough to answer questions during a = shake-down period. And they'll probably "let you in the back" to see = what's there. >=20 > Anyone have good ideas about handling this? Or should I give it = up?Thanks! [SM] Again, I do not, I even failed (yet, still working on it) = to convince my dad that his network could be improved.... (In his = defense he mostly operates well below capacity and at 50% utilization = there simply is no noticeable bufferbloat, remedies or no remedies ;) ) Regards Sebastian P.S.: In theory having a test bed that could e tested directly over the = internet could be convincing, if such a thing would not at the same time = make all alarm bells ring about trusting such a test as unbiased and = objective.=20 >=20 > Rich >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat