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X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 21:59:56 -0000 --------------tBLAVikO09iboQYDCkDBMqJ4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The paper talks about mechanism, not effect. We need to refactor before we = can summarize I've pitched it to my colleagues by saying what problem it causes us, rathe= r than how it does it. Latency pisses Joyce off. When we fetch a page, parts of it appear first, then others, then banner ad= s, and then some of the images, all while we're trying to read it in order.= My wife hates that. Oh, and we have jitter and dropouts in video meetings= , too. We've bought tons of bandwidth, but "end-user experience" isn't improving. = That's because we've been trying to improve our performance by improving s= omething that's easy to buy, but only helps a little bit. Then I described what we did about it, and recommended the BITAG paper for = an understanding, and a new router for a local solution. Once I'd done that refactoring, I could sit down and say that the summation= is 1. working latency makes its victims angry at the internet 2. we've been doing something to fix it that only helps a little bit and the reader immediately responds with the solution: "well, don't do that= !". You have to build from there to the full problem, the politics and the econ= omics. Then you can look at the solutions, and narrow them down until you c= an conclude with "do this instead" --dave On 11/11/22 18:16, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote: If you were to try to summarize this *in a paragraph*, what would you say? https://www.bitag.org/documents/BITAG_latency_explained.pdf (yes, I helped write this, but squeezing it down to less than 3 pages is beyond my capabilities, much less a paragraph, and by the time we hit the recommendations section, things had got too political to make sane recommendations) Also QoS, vs QoE. Try to imagine explaining the need to a CFO, or congresscritter. Feel free to take more than a paragraph. -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including a= ny and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for= the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, co= pying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confident= iality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify= the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message fr= om your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not co= nstitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electro= nic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or= an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this teleco= mmunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal docume= ntation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been= signed by an authorized signatory. --------------tBLAVikO09iboQYDCkDBMqJ4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The paper talks about mechanism, not effect. We need to refactor before = we can summarize

I've pitched it to my colleagues by saying what problem it causes us<= /i>, rather than how it does it. 

Latency pisses Joyce off.

When we fetch a page, parts of it appear first, then others, then banner= ads, and then some of the images, all while we're trying to read it in ord= er. My wife hates that.  Oh, and we have jitter and dropouts in video = meetings, too.

We've bought tons of bandwidth, but "end-user experience" isn't i= mproving.  That's because we've been trying to improve our performance= by improving something that's easy to buy, but only helps a little bit.

Then I described what we did about it, and recommended the BITAG paper f= or an understanding, and a new router for a local solution.


Once I'd done that refactoring, I could sit down and say that the summat= ion is

  1. working latency makes its victims angry at the internet
  2. we've been doing something to fix it that only helps a little bit<= /li>

and the reader immediately responds with the solution: "well, don't= do that!".

You have to build from there to the full problem, the politics and the e= conomics. Then you can look at the solutions, and narrow them down until yo= u can conclude with "do this instead"

--dave



On 11/11/22 18:16, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote= :
If you were to try to summarize this=
 *in a paragraph*, what would you say?

https://www.bitag.org/documents/BITAG_latency_=
explained.pdf

(yes, I helped write this, but squeezing it down to less than 3 pages
is beyond my capabilities, much less a paragraph, and by the time we
hit the recommendations section, things had got too political to make
sane recommendations)

Also QoS, vs QoE. Try to imagine explaining the need to a CFO, or
congresscritter. Feel free to take more than a paragraph.



--=20
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com |              -- =
Mark Twain

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND D= ISCLAIMER : T= his telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confiden= tial information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or discl= osure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you= have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender im= mediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This tel= ecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to condu= ct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offe= r, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication ar= e subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and ar= e not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an = authorized signatory.

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