From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 581933B2A4; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 11:09:33 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1639066171; bh=cD69Ana99LZM8C4wxDJDaq2qI960mzXFa3Xv+CSPz7I=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=PPTjWctpetkCjMtk0vaT3oPMDT1NmD/af0A2NRx8UJs/4I/YXBT/oc822Il/behq8 NrGI2sUPZaY8WeQ88LWMXt5IjCJa+WORjT2X9QbpkFFzQ4PGNbKgr4MLmw9DucZ9Jr yMvOIQfYaKT6OzhxUNRQ6EmVi8O3Fox020vxw53k= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MRmjq-1n5pJZ1Ura-00TC4W; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 17:09:31 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:09:30 +0100 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <85B1D37A-9C1B-490F-93F6-9B23416B5869@gmx.de> References: <5BBAA5F8-3C4B-4022-8D80-D87B6CAAB8EA@gmx.de> To: Luca Muscariello X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:VtdOfAB4vdxcDL19EmQWwbqOXgGN/jb1c7tvRdk1AX3V6DoijM1 Z5/EgyCwtyVbg0aNOVj1uaLdyMuNNW1EJduJ56Ld28Ksx+gBG8X/VOMBOiq4iKMcKTlOMKY i2ws6YLcyEOPUMFTywOtezdRzuAqZ7Nq466Tf2d1DFjYPC6kQdsB2CG39JyhRWnJz3NJb0w MW+RpLcc+VcIhQkbR4u7w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:HDFqyHc1TZA=:Dp4QyPN6VCO7BE7QrPU4tm YuDueqy/tCisndBXm49VsIO58NFWe4oZZ7rQT7KioJ5r+d8BoHvt/NVtgvrZhPIF2ZKB+E/V7 P6GzVFUF/t/6g3+0Go22WyOcsfv2LORNqLjd+Sv0CdRGq8oo2XiumZKU30G5WAm84/Sn91O8m rfoS1r1+HwTF4pGr8vZsjVug5+6Ara2Gm8+1O4GPr2jRVvycjLby2VJ6XO99ODRIp5KziSAGM ZjJCfMsRTXHPDUPMPK0bUPXrTbPM4ErWWDj7BbJMDU2PzaXdMnTbxkTePJqf9DddLgj7aQTfG L+B3V46lshC+cgkdCMZdakxHVYlNtiL+cd5p02P801S9lh3KfWPIZKQG5SFl2dMUjHKYcN3XQ GAdXz0CxMD3WYAs/JdIbcrTtOxr7g5rjMEtpkVBUEc9CduiCyuaAs+MkwehhbVMQOCTuJmiDy 4vMAOUPYoT5OYAbFF2dlWtYyOiiyJt5R0TFe3z5gWqT/rXuUNLFLPKCDwKIUOM7nfWTxCfgzd 85zdvUt4DkidinoE4YWJmX7V6zHtv7+Aqw+McduK2yVUxZR1fAS2prSH9wxMY7/6vBOayLtmA B9kiN4vYQnmqukgWZltaYVNjHqUC2G4mctAnMiGxC0N/LyEd6O8fXvOuzUQJKZpXQdzCvAz07 V7811roicRdscZiYR8F4CiQI3b95W/cyUA+C9jdYyGM2aNzd0TP4RZW9kOHrSgu1KoGvdGfIK WCY03xB9LfKY/fL+1ObykpZ+nhyc/sJ2vz6loQU4pEAqfydNjzH5oik6JD9bvcqwfkFRCvwX3 6Q0pkoO6jnIx7YW3A9zyWEI3QUJeFScf1lEafGytpDU3ByLx1FsruTHWIpsJx4PuTaZjjbsGD 1JP8YbukOxtQ9GGxlU+vhvsD1IQeoKWaOxTGfwZ+MW8cnythoGwBJ393Nm67dZohI5OBUFoSj sbvVsv/qHeYnsQPqbJKI7wfpoX+K1rEYZy3/jhaUgG+VYzF/5rnIFFwg/nYn3ilwJZ0hAEI5P KVbvki8RD681C55HrhlWN9KhTQvFVhitPS+dl+4WnSBTVFPOfwaSCWSsGHIsuyrICh32yuOMX QewRtW46yWn8ao= Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] tp-link request for SQM X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 16:09:33 -0000 Hi Luca > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:58, Luca Muscariello = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > Hi Dave, >=20 >=20 > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht wrote: > >=20 > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello = wrote: > >>=20 > >> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245 > >>=20 > >> = https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Dbbcc5ef5-e677-4f27-aa= 04-1849db81d0f5 > >=20 > > Nice. > >=20 > > A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down at the = same time. > >=20 > > Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at these = speeds. > >=20 > > Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to = determine > > if the link is suitable for gaming or not. >=20 > Which is the sane thing to do... IMHO. For any "twitch"-type = reation-time gated gaming all players need to be in an acceptable range = of "RTTs" to and from the server so that all perceive the world = similarly and nobody has an unfair advantage/disadvantage, so absolute = RTT does seem to matter. I would agree that jitter is nastier in that is = will cause "randomish" variations of the RTT, but then the known = solution against jitter is additional buffering (large enough to simply = even out the unequal jittered packet arrival times) which in turn just = increases the "RTT", no? (I guess no game really does this enough, so = jitter stays the constant problem for internet game-play). > > >=20 > Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 such as CoDM, = Critical Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to face/conceal = network conditions based on the experience the studio wants to offer to = the gamer. Care to elaborate, please? As far as I can tell what I describe = above is pretty universal iff fair "coordination" between different = player's actions is required. How do you conceal issues about causal = ordering of events that ideally are identical from all perspectives?=20 Regards Sebastian >=20 > =20 >=20 > > We had them participating on this list at some point.... > >=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht = wrote: > >>>=20 > >>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home router vendor = NOT > >>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded up with = someones > >>> with accounts? > >>>=20 > >>> https://community.tp-link.com/us/home/forum/topic/511156 > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>> -- > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > >>>=20 > >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Bloat mailing list > >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > >=20 > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel