Re: [Bloat] when does the CoDel part of fq_codel help in the real world?

["Bless, Roland (TM)" <roland.bless@kit.edu>]

Hi,

Am 27.11.18 um 11:29 schrieb Luca Muscariello:
> I have never said that you need to fill the buffer to the max size to
> get full capacity, which is an absurdity.

Yes, it's absurd, but that's what today's loss-based CC algorithms do.

> I said you need at least the BDP so that the queue never empties out.
> The link is fully utilized IFF the queue is never emptied.

I was also a bit imprecise: you'll need a BDP in flight, but
you don't need to fill the buffer at all. The latter sentence
is valid only in the direction: queue not empty -> link fully utilized.

Regards,
 Roland

> 
> 
> 
> On Tue 27 Nov 2018 at 11:26, Bless, Roland (TM) <roland.bless@kit.edu
> <mailto:roland.bless@kit.edu>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Luca,
> 
>     Am 27.11.18 um 10:24 schrieb Luca Muscariello:
>     > A congestion controlled protocol such as TCP or others, including
>     QUIC,
>     > LEDBAT and so on
>     > need at least the BDP in the transmission queue to get full link
>     > efficiency, i.e. the queue never empties out.
> 
>     This is not true. There are congestion control algorithms
>     (e.g., TCP LoLa [1] or BBRv2) that can fully utilize the bottleneck link
>     capacity without filling the buffer to its maximum capacity. The BDP
>     rule of thumb basically stems from the older loss-based congestion
>     control variants that profit from the standing queue that they built
>     over time when they detect a loss:
>     while they back-off and stop sending, the queue keeps the bottleneck
>     output busy and you'll not see underutilization of the link. Moreover,
>     once you get good loss de-synchronization, the buffer size requirement
>     for multiple long-lived flows decreases.
> 
>     > This gives rule of thumbs to size buffers which is also very practical
>     > and thanks to flow isolation becomes very accurate.
> 
>     The positive effect of buffers is merely their role to absorb
>     short-term bursts (i.e., mismatch in arrival and departure rates)
>     instead of dropping packets. One does not need a big buffer to
>     fully utilize a link (with perfect knowledge you can keep the link
>     saturated even without a single packet waiting in the buffer).
>     Furthermore, large buffers (e.g., using the BDP rule of thumb)
>     are not useful/practical anymore at very high speed such as 100 Gbit/s:
>     memory is also quite costly at such high speeds...
> 
>     Regards,
>      Roland
> 
>     [1] M. Hock, F. Neumeister, M. Zitterbart, R. Bless.
>     TCP LoLa: Congestion Control for Low Latencies and High Throughput.
>     Local Computer Networks (LCN), 2017 IEEE 42nd Conference on, pp.
>     215-218, Singapore, Singapore, October 2017
>     http://doc.tm.kit.edu/2017-LCN-lola-paper-authors-copy.pdf
> 
>     > Which is: 
>     >
>     > 1) find a way to keep the number of backlogged flows at a
>     reasonable value. 
>     > This largely depends on the minimum fair rate an application may
>     need in
>     > the long term.
>     > We discussed a little bit of available mechanisms to achieve that
>     in the
>     > literature.
>     >
>     > 2) fix the largest RTT you want to serve at full utilization and size
>     > the buffer using BDP * N_backlogged.  
>     > Or the other way round: check how much memory you can use 
>     > in the router/line card/device and for a fixed N, compute the largest
>     > RTT you can serve at full utilization. 
>     >
>     > 3) there is still some memory to dimension for sparse flows in
>     addition
>     > to that, but this is not based on BDP. 
>     > It is just enough to compute the total utilization of sparse flows and
>     > use the same simple model Toke has used 
>     > to compute the (de)prioritization probability.
>     >
>     > This procedure would allow to size FQ_codel but also SFQ.
>     > It would be interesting to compare the two under this buffer sizing. 
>     > It would also be interesting to compare another mechanism that we have
>     > mentioned during the defense
>     > which is AFD + a sparse flow queue. Which is, BTW, already
>     available in
>     > Cisco nexus switches for data centres.
>     >
>     > I think that the the codel part would still provide the ECN feature,
>     > that all the others cannot have.
>     > However the others, the last one especially can be implemented in
>     > silicon with reasonable cost.
>