From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail2.tohojo.dk (mail2.tohojo.dk [77.235.48.147]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C035C21F231 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 2015 03:52:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail2.tohojo.dk Received: by alrua-kau.kau.toke.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 59B41C40134; Mon, 27 Apr 2015 12:52:14 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=toke.dk; s=201310; t=1430131935; bh=EzUbYVxv0EylsWuxfhKA92R+cLYCLje8yIl1m+3f/3k=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=NCrTB3oZ9OT0jfiujF1XtKaVLmdUyDT+/fs3pMnFIORuvgBf4FjyEA7VH8dQxwPiV qtIqREg5qSR3R/VY+dC/cIoNBmmn+IV7yiF96j8OZxAZ7nY1g+8H/RelnI3C3sTM8P NoErrwsojFXZHNyiVocNy39GD5gUfjp06y7OphY8= From: =?utf-8?Q?Toke_H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= To: Neil Davies References: <87r3r53ncb.fsf@toke.dk> <04A0C729-6E87-49C6-84F7-3428F236CA15@unimore.it> <3DC1A2EA-6DDD-4FF9-AD12-BB509EFB96B8@unimore.it> <30560030-8A86-481D-A310-B3B72C26C368@pnsol.com> <87fv7l3lqo.fsf@toke.dk> <1E4513D8-FAEB-4D51-969E-093FA4929D89@pnsol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 12:52:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1E4513D8-FAEB-4D51-969E-093FA4929D89@pnsol.com> (Neil Davies's message of "Mon, 27 Apr 2015 11:38:38 +0100") X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID: <87383l3ktd.fsf@toke.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] Detecting bufferbloat from outside a node X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 10:52:51 -0000 Neil Davies writes: > The interesting thing is making all those local decisions add up to a > (set of) end-to-end outcomes, and the answer is not to make the same > decision(s) everywhere - unfortunately that doesn=E2=80=99t stack up. Yes, well, I do also like the E2E principle of not making too many decisions within the network, instead letting the endpoints sort it out. For me, the fight against bufferbloat is mostly about restoring the assumptions that it has eroded (i.e. "packet loss is not to be feared, but on the contrary is an important indicator that we're hitting congestion"). I'd really rather prefer the network itself to be fairly dumb... > We have (some level) of control over our =E2=80=9Cuniverse of discourse= =E2=80=9D - my > joke with my mates at CERN is that they only have one universe to > investigate, we can create three in one day and still be home in time > for tea! Hehe, quite. That is both fascinating and frustrating! :) -Toke