From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail.taht.net (mail.taht.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:7028]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74A773B2A4 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 02:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from dancer.taht.net (unknown [IPv6:2603:3024:1536:86f0:eea8:6bff:fefe:9a2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.taht.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EFD1621B1A; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 07:36:04 +0000 (UTC) From: Dave Taht To: Mikael Abrahamsson Cc: Luca Muscariello , Jonathan Morton , bloat References: <65EAC6C1-4688-46B6-A575-A6C7F2C066C5@heistp.net> <86b16a95-e47d-896b-9d43-69c65c52afc7@kit.edu> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 23:35:53 -0800 In-Reply-To: (Mikael Abrahamsson's message of "Tue, 27 Nov 2018 11:50:24 +0100 (CET)") Message-ID: <87d0qowd2e.fsf@taht.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Subject: Re: [Bloat] when does the CoDel part of fq_codel help in the real world? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 07:36:06 -0000 Mikael Abrahamsson writes: > On Tue, 27 Nov 2018, Luca Muscariello wrote: > >> link fully utilized is defined as Q>0 unless you don't include the >> packet currently being transmitted. I do, so the TXtteer is never >> idle. But that's a detail. > > As someone who works with moving packets, it's perplexing to me to > interact with transport peeps who seem enormously focused on > "goodput". My personal opinion is that most people would be better off > with 80% of their available bandwidth being in use without any > noticable buffer induced delay, as opposed to the transport protocol > doing its damndest to fill up the link to 100% and sometimes failing > and inducing delay instead. +1 I came up with a new analogy today. Some really like to build dragsters - that go fast but might explode at the end of the strip - or even during the race! I like to build churches - that will stand for a 1000 years. You can reason about stable, deterministic systems, and build other beautiful structures on top of them. I have faith in churches, not dragsters. > > Could someone perhaps comment on the thinking in the transport > protocol design "crowd" when it comes to this?