From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-la0-f99.google.com (mail-la0-f99.google.com [209.85.215.99]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C50821F1F7 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 2015 13:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lamq1 with SMTP id q1so2494641lam.1 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 2015 13:27:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=S+7ED4OgT8KJ9/d5wFBnxKv2OrED5bL66s9FbK2Nh30=; b=Fz8acpDZhpePEgjC0Q/MRb4P1hJHD6mMNm5Z7E32M9DhYxiyhgbReiuTnbAv+hqahN 5CvQ5lqjIMcCGnhlmDKfrpb58E+juTnQaSI1rMpJXE2B6bUWtLQvF6E+XYfB932BkP0r uUT6DFhkmGjmEkV1HJS1blHd7ZwwqzO7HFH4J9FhXKdMtTaG92NdhmpOlOYJrkEJRTVi Mqc3Bcp9KmfI8d58j24zITWojFZSd+SuAblAakYpv+/UONCun8CLpUW8eahq7dSmcPFk wTywD4s2qSuo0KnNnQWcu0iGR4muEklIv9qcfElWylspnJzm/HD0kX8wS5nrAqs6Px3d Hs3w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlaZ+1gnUo51eB7sJBqv+6gbWa0GOcVHjiiVtoVISeq0/lm0k0tImbQKsVyrsCULdS6OUZ4b3BuXPeRHZNUjn7qfiy1kg== X-Received: by 10.181.13.113 with SMTP id ex17mr2151118wid.12.1430166443988; Mon, 27 Apr 2015 13:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.la.pnsol.com (eu1sys200aog133.obsmtp.com. [207.126.144.209]) by mx.google.com with SMTPS id ew9sm414159wic.3.2015.04.27.13.27.23 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Apr 2015 13:27:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Relaying-Domain: pnsol.com Received: from mail.la.pnsol.com ([89.145.213.110]) (using TLSv1) by eu1sys200aob133.postini.com ([207.126.147.11]) with SMTP ID DSNKVT6bqf7u779zjZSQyY3WeCeoP7tYodK/@postini.com; Mon, 27 Apr 2015 20:27:23 UTC Received: from git.pnsol.com ([172.20.5.238] helo=roam.smtp.pnsol.com) by mail.la.pnsol.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ympcc-00031s-Fa; Mon, 27 Apr 2015 21:27:18 +0100 Received: from [172.20.5.109] by roam.smtp.pnsol.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1YmpcS-0000A4-6v; Mon, 27 Apr 2015 20:27:08 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Neil Davies In-Reply-To: <87d22p1wim.fsf@toke.dk> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 21:27:19 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8A4A25B0-B7B5-47C6-9CD1-AD744F3C24FB@pnsol.com> References: <72DB0260-F0DF-426F-A3F3-ECF5D8AF228F@pnsol.com> <877fsx3l5a.fsf@toke.dk> <87d22p1wim.fsf@toke.dk> To: =?utf-8?Q?Toke_H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Cc: bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] Detecting bufferbloat from outside a node X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 20:27:54 -0000 Toke On 27 Apr 2015, at 15:22, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen = wrote: > Neil Davies writes: >=20 >> You'll find the way that =E2=88=86Q can be decomposed into basis set = of =E2=88=86Q|G, >> =E2=88=86Q|S and =E2=88=86Q|V - helps work out which parts of the = budget get eaten up >> by different elements of the network design/architecture. >=20 > Right, I got that part. What I'm missing is how you define the actual > measure for =E2=88=86Q -- but that is application dependent? E.g. for = web sites > it might be load time, for VoIP it might be MOS score? >=20 > -Toke For VoIP the aspects of =E2=88=86Q that are of interest (after the total = one way delay) are the=20 delay variance and loss rate - take a look at = https://ivanovic.web.cern.ch/ivanovic/articles/open-2004-007.pdf=20 (which is the tech report behind what was published in SPECTS'03 = (Beuran, R., Ivanovici, M., Dobinson, B., Davies, N., Thompson, P.: Network Quality of Service Measurement = System for Application Requirements Evaluation) In other aspects it might be "time to first frame" (VoD) or "possibility = of a buffer starvation event per operating hour" (VoD) the QoE (Qualty of Experience) metric needs to be one that has a = relationship with the users' perception.] Neil=