From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A4FD3B2A4; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 18:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C9563AB0CB; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 22:47:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88047160032; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 22:47:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7661F1600A7; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 22:47:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id aleXjHhyHHjX; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 22:47:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [172.30.42.69] (unknown [49.2.105.120]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2BDF5160032; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 22:47:21 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Mark Andrews X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <1585088915.30981517@apps.rackspace.com> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:47:17 +1100 Cc: Colin Dearborn , Rich Brown , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8B226A2B-3816-4C4C-BD28-5660544FA4A5@isc.org> References: <54620DA1-1B6B-456E-990E-3C99B6779887@gmx.de> <6C32AF17-015D-4771-8051-17BF1938C22C@gmail.com> <1584912664.72374374@apps.rackspace.com> <1585088915.30981517@apps.rackspace.com> To: "David P. Reed" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] OT: Netflix vs 6in4 from HE.net X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 22:47:23 -0000 Netflix could just redirect requests from HE.NET address ranges to IPv4 = only servers and that would solve the issue for all HE.NET customers. = This isn=E2=80=99t the case of attempting to circumvent GEOIP rules. = They can detect that the connection is coming from a HE.NET address = range, they can easily install a redirect. > On 25 Mar 2020, at 09:28, David P. Reed wrote: >=20 > Thanks, Colin, for the info. Sadly, I learned all about the licensing = of content in the industry back about 20 years ago when I was active in = the battles about Xcasting rights internationally (extending "broadcast = rights" to the Web, which are rights that exist only in the EU, having = to do with protecting broadcasters whose signals are powerful enough to = cross borders of countries, so a whole new, non-copyright-based = Intellectual Property Right was invented. WIPO wanted to argue that the = Web was just like broadcasting across borders, so web pages should be = burdened by Xcasting rights, along with all other copyrighted things.) >=20 > What I wanted to know was exactly what you just said in passing: that = he.net's address space was entirely blocked by Netflix because it wasn't = accurately geolocated for "region restriction" enforcement. >=20 > Whether I think that is "correct" or "reasonable", I just want to be = able to get Netflix in my US house. Not to be any sort of "pirate" = intentionally trying to break the license. I really just want that stuff = to work as the license between Netflix and content provider requires = (I'm sure the license doesn't say "block he.net"). >=20 >=20 > On Tuesday, March 24, 2020 11:11am, "Colin Dearborn" = said: >=20 >> HE IPv6 space has been tagged as a vpn type service by Netflix, since = it has users >> all over the world, but it's space is all geolocated in the US. If HE = had >> geolocated the blocks of each POP to the country the POP resided in, = and put some >> rules around geolocation of using each POP (IE Canadian residents can = only use >> Canadian POPs) this could have been avoided, but it also would have = been a large >> amount of work on HE's side just to make geolocation accurate-ish. >>=20 >> Fortunately, my ISP got IPv6 working natively shortly after Netflix = started >> blocking HE's space, so I didn't have to suffer for too long (but = lost my US >> netflix.) >>=20 >> Content licensing is a very complex thing. While you might believe = that your >> subscription equals the license, in reality the license is the = agreement between >> Netflix and the content providers. Content providers put strict = geolocation rules >> of where content can be played on Netflix, and Netflix can be sued by = them if it >> appears that they're not doing enough to protect these rules. This is = to protect >> the value of the content providers content, when they sell it to = someone other >> than Netflix, or start their own streaming service. For example, in = Canada, we >> have a streaming service called Crave. There's a lot of content on = there that >> would be available to Netflix in the States, so if Netflix didn't = properly adhere >> to geolocation rules, Crave could legitimately either sue Netflix = directly, or get >> the content provider to do it for them (again, depending on the = licensing >> agreement). >> This is why when you travel, you get the local Netflix content, not = the content of >> the country where you pay the subscription. >>=20 >> Your option of using a cloud server may work. :) >>=20 >>=20 >> This might turn out to be a problem for me - I have a "smart TV" that = I watch >> Netflix on, and it appears to use IPv4. What specifically triggers = Netflix to >> reject specific IPv6 clients? Is it the player's IPv6 address? Is all = of he.net's >> address space blocked? >>=20 >> I've been planning to move more of my home networks to routed IPv6. >>=20 >> In principle, Netflix as a business shouldn't care - it's just doing = its best >> efforts to protect its content's licensing requirements. So if I'm = actually in the >> US, and my net claims correctly to be in US (by whatever trickery I = use), neither >> Netflix nor I am violating any license from a legal point of view. >>=20 >> So all I need to do would be to get a legit US IPv6 address (I have = one /64 on a >> public cloud server), and tunnel it to my house and give it to my TV. = Not ideal, >> but until Netflix does its geofencing *correctly* according to the = license, rather >> than according to IP address, I'd say it's a proper thing. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:47pm, "Rich Brown" = said: >>=20 >>> I love knowing smart people. >>>=20 >>> Yes, it does appear to be Netflix geo-fencing their services. Given = that I only >>> watch Netflix on one computer, I am taking Sebastian's advice and = turning off >>> IPv6 >>> DNS queries in Firefox. >>>=20 >>> Thanks again for these responses. >>>=20 >>> Rich >>>=20 >>>> On Mar 21, 2020, at 6:14 PM, Sebastian Moeller = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Rich, >>>>=20 >>>> since it seems to be IPv6 related, why not use firefox for netflix = and disable >>>> IPv6 in firefox (see >>>> = https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-cant-load-websites-other-brow= sers-can#w_ipv6) >>>> maybe that works well enough? >>>>=20 >>>> Best Regards >>>> Sebastian >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Mar 21, 2020, at 21:20, Rich Brown = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> to Bloat & CeroWrt folks: This is a little OT for either of these = lists, but I >>>>> figured there are plenty of experts here, and I would be delighted = to get your >>>>> thoughts. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I just tried to view a Netflix movie and got a F7111-5059 error = message. This >>>>> prevented the video from playing. (As recently as a month or two = ago, it >>>>> worked >>>>> fine.) >>>>>=20 >>>>> Googling the error message gets to this page >>>>> https://help.netflix.com/en/node/54085 that singles out use of an = IPv6 Proxy >>>>> Tunnel. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Sure enough, I'm have a 6in4 tunnel through Hurricane Electric on = WAN6. >>>>> Stopping >>>>> that WAN6 interface caused Netflix to work. >>>>>=20 >>>>> What advice could you offer? (I could, of course, turn off WAN6 to = watch >>>>> movies. >>>>> But that's a drag, and other family members couldn't do this.) = Many thanks. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Rich >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Bloat mailing list >>>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list >>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --=20 Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org