From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf0-x22c.google.com (mail-lf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E58213CB61 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 08:14:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id u3-v6so19813722lff.5 for ; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 05:14:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=GDFfNvmAMNDKoTBijdAKyhvOkS3LoqDDCItYaxbQOeE=; b=IGtieyXDU+eNx/fHW4Zrm22d8hhp34A3Z/pg5WUavY27krKxH0M6YNAQOW1hcFO/Gl EEJ8QIkg7EK4ZVI7/9GPKHMfFOr9BQh+03ffp1OkdNQ6zX64CcXiTtZcAvrLggm5o4pj p1XJ6BNC1SyYeL5FTj6JdPZkjydbulp6jYxdlMievNEVuf1rXDPWGhLf6GF8i4r7EkFe EOJuiGka6zaMiS6yn4kBytOQdotBGwPCi0MJuNZLudOz8UL/UJwEg5PirriHWUPiWaF8 FIaGGJO0Y0hSoEeRl3fTk1UwCzfXJYTfEjQcX681SDczW2sPgQT1AMpug6GMMQiYU32l qptg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=GDFfNvmAMNDKoTBijdAKyhvOkS3LoqDDCItYaxbQOeE=; b=SDIgTvPH64t09Vvr3l56YC/7jJngHZKIt6scc+t5NplcCwdwqrVezc2fGJmhQoMrvF vArj9ZR7U+Ztulha8g76rAJLRvu/tgxLQDBLpR9W1iL/N5IBUlrai7aKu8eecucJOZBv mT0ADTIMDu3vSksfE3gdoVsYEuoVwB+0ajdquXNjdhA1ng3pHHmIl3vF8WDiJ5sf88/9 xQypuzd8iREpNwQEcqGr0OaimpjkSqDQYECvfoYFzomVGPc7CWVOJ77DGUtuvUwcTF2e Zkq7KV1kS950UOhMPZ1CYsPQzjkak2yv0BmwTAc6mik/RT0MgwkheRC8msHNT16GVc9I gKGg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tA9aynnHRVVz8901wtl2i2fSQ53zqDN0xDWplU4+G3P5sq1m4JZ ArMpuX67zsLwm3fy6b3IjLY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48VmwJovullmCBH9qtfZv+G00KEOvUFeSxFlxhA+5XYOJoSzT8kd/d/DUcppukG5PGoJ3hx0A== X-Received: by 2002:a19:4402:: with SMTP id r2-v6mr8340560lfa.105.1522757662691; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 05:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.239.216] (83-245-237-197-nat-p.elisa-mobile.fi. [83.245.237.197]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a21-v6sm500374lfi.75.2018.04.03.05.14.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Apr 2018 05:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:14:19 +0300 Cc: davecb@spamcop.net, bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8DE589C3-9537-416D-AC7C-9250464869F9@gmail.com> References: <50e57074-4ca5-59f7-f010-d9b2b845a8a7@rogers.com> To: Jesper Louis Andersen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) Subject: Re: [Bloat] Seen in passing: mention of Valve's networking scheme and RFC 5348 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 12:14:24 -0000 > On 3 Apr, 2018, at 2:54 pm, Jesper Louis Andersen = wrote: >=20 > Apart from that, it seems like a lot of things are being done = correctly. I *much* prefer a message-based protocol where packets use = protobufs in many scenarios over a stream-oriented protocol. The former = forces people to program around having limited buffers and this usually = puts a flow control scheme into their programs, whereas a badly written = stream transmission just creates trouble; some of those being in the = security area. I'm reminded of the original taxonomy where "reliable stream" (TCP) and = "unreliable datagram" (UDP) were only two possibilities in a much wider = kingdom. The absence of "reliable datagram" in the Internet protocol = suite always struck me as odd, though "unreliable stream" seemed like a = contradiction in terms once you got into packet switching networks (VoIP = notwithstanding). In the end, people have kept reinventing "reliable = datagram" protocols on top of UDP, whenever they ran up against = requirements that TCP didn't fulfil. - Jonathan Morton