From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x32d.google.com (mail-wm1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D629D3B29D for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 04:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id g206so21063855wme.1 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 01:57:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heistp.net; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=SYkvz8s38K82u0UceZFsKwJnedH6isr+P2Jvr5VX/rM=; b=RXBBNX4oF6qLkv8bk/fUyM38Wh1hwJoaNyQLB0VMyvIWjMkraBuaOrTiNqE/l4lBQZ vwAQRI8z1bcT+57/IyvexSPWiwfB9SY1WtGex8P3dGaVzsnrxQqRkNtGG2rg0wI3jQlV 8h3aqW+oYNsEgcxz+1dZEyjoIGngnsBFj8XBJGKgPN/iMUT0edA7OOrxGAtelv4cdcGP UFUA5i6XMFSlXyorn3lML36sZHztDhoaGOF1c3qw8ExL/yK9COmswhFXJbQMWsI4WnDH uvdUvu4yMjG0qTTH+DF2nBTU6QNVjZwTtcJYl0BFyNmNhvIkhKeDcwnJvHHNv104RvLh yguA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=SYkvz8s38K82u0UceZFsKwJnedH6isr+P2Jvr5VX/rM=; b=MWkLMYJppP7tD88UXu7SJn/v2rbEb2e9NkZdceKBNvWmyNACQVR574jjqllotq9WFI itFVtSVb1OHURA7BqxeZCx/Dsy3QSlvmlA04hBFMJhmh6TFfsr382CZK38Cz6iBPYMVo hJEiJyrOAWtwafk+VGEpqEMSn1RmULacSLA0+gsTlAuD4sNS+iV4ky4mSUohFp6WnWdi Z3ZPMzuqz55OfA0AKwkJgg/aI4vnMtms6cG0Im26sJ+RrNFMJpFD5wKiYcehsPcjzATg 5wuoDOTfedSQ2Acsr7CXCG77C/SyFH+YEvGXs4VKJopflK62ST89vgdQgYs5u7iTkF3r hQEw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVfxYPRsdsGBE2KWFJsGdvU8SDFMeq711HsJwmNeJdNqazliACJ KfA1y0hMsXu4iVYrBJPEVdwSMg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqygme4G64HiIobjP1DwsBlXi4Skl/f7qvkEIGgQQ0F97djS47RPlSM7H30B7oAi22PWJi/lPA== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c5d9:: with SMTP id n25mr27762616wmk.8.1575280625049; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 01:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.72.0.64] (h-1169.lbcfree.net. [185.193.85.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z6sm9063855wmz.12.2019.12.02.01.57.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Dec 2019 01:57:04 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Pete Heist In-Reply-To: <87lfrvl22k.fsf@taht.net> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 10:57:03 +0100 Cc: Jonathan Morton , ECN-Sane , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <92AFD3DE-A8A3-4CA2-8BFB-CFB5E446524A@heistp.net> References: <63E9C0E4-C913-4B2F-8AFC-64E12489BC65@gmail.com> <297503679.4519449.1575069001960@mail.yahoo.com> <54C976BC-DEC7-4710-9CFF-0243559D9002@gmail.com> <156EA284-C01D-4FAA-89F4-DB448795F7FC@gmx.de> <385CF47C-17AD-4A62-9924-068E1485FFD5@gmail.com> <63DE3099-443D-4ADB-84ED-B1A25AB6D80C@gmx.de> <87lfrvl22k.fsf@taht.net> To: Dave Taht X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] sce materials from ietf X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 09:57:06 -0000 > On Dec 2, 2019, at 6:38 AM, Dave Taht wrote: >=20 > I do hate watching y'all continually concede the "latency" point and > have to argue on the "chosen ground" of single or dualq about > long-running tcp flows.=20 I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99ve conceded that. It would be possible = to run more tests on a LAN with a shorter Codel interval and show ~1ms = TCP RTT, and perhaps we should. I don=E2=80=99t think there's any = fundamental reason why one signaling mechanism or the other should = ultimately be any better in this regard.