From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp34.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp34.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11CE13B2A4; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 20:02:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pps.filterd (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp34.rno.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp34.rno.apple.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 29I028g0010925; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 17:02:08 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=content-type : mime-version : subject : from : in-reply-to : date : cc : content-transfer-encoding : message-id : references : to; s=20180706; bh=by6yF55DNawqDTnhWWusKHQH0H8ZGO/tG07IcIUSJYg=; b=sKCnwxZxv8n5xQqbBluni2xY6RmaZN9Pjouu7e8PZ3psCMfpZEEzwjEyoHR5AeCwoCV+ GGL4stFMjxvVVWfboEe6txi20V4yzbxKdd50jEs7YnN2QrB0dfPCup5dYa6pCBoinhqS YX79sK30rpiddVA2pcNgJiP2rdwtCcFWOYtQ8xo+Bgn89s8gBUoRjglkbj2Bd8KKr2lO NtX1De4Hk9W0FIMOMRBbW19SqWb5maNrpHCaVfQ38Nici21g8MxRhoGL0oa9lrni9KYV icplq3wUsIG2hOmUemCIe+FvPhXY15J78a2+jlFAPY8HJf4U8Jx9FxhOwuKNEDwKSfTn gA== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.150]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp34.rno.apple.com with ESMTP id 3k95nx10tc-2 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 17 Oct 2022 17:02:08 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.16]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.19.20220711 64bit (built Jul 11 2022)) with ESMTPS id <0RJX00J5Q9FC9K00@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 17:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.19.20220711 64bit (built Jul 11 2022)) id <0RJX00M0097TMG00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com>; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 17:02:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 762a9e81ab1774e425bcb42b3bcb8505 X-Va-E-CD: 7b79535e0e2c706cb521c16087105ecb X-Va-R-CD: b29d391f6d13ba1bafb01998e95aa6b7 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: ab26b32c-8ae2-4408-9b8a-0723921ba97d X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 762a9e81ab1774e425bcb42b3bcb8505 X-V-E-CD: 7b79535e0e2c706cb521c16087105ecb X-V-R-CD: b29d391f6d13ba1bafb01998e95aa6b7 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: b01e1739-46a8-436d-a5e1-f4e22b4b67c2 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.545, 18.0.895 definitions=2022-10-17_13:2022-10-17, 2022-10-17 signatures=0 Received: from [17.11.122.14] (unknown [17.11.122.14]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.19.20220711 64bit (built Jul 11 2022)) with ESMTPSA id <0RJX002069FEIC00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com>; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 17:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 17:02:01 -0700 Cc: Rpm , bloat , Make-Wifi-fast , Cake List Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.545, 18.0.895 definitions=2022-10-17_13:2022-10-17, 2022-10-17 signatures=0 Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] The most wonderful video ever about bufferbloat X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 00:02:10 -0000 On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast = wrote: > This was so massively well done, I cried. Does anyone know how to get = in touch with the ifxit folk? >=20 > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUICh3ScfNWI I=E2=80=99m surprised that you liked this video. It seems to me that it = repeats all the standard misinformation. The analogy they use is the = standard terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, = and the =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D is letting certain traffic =E2=80=9Cjum= p the line, angering everyone behind them=E2=80=9D. Some quotes from the video: > it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the line = and just check out, especially since you=E2=80=99re in a hurry, but = they=E2=80=99re rudely refusing > to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a worker = saw you standing at the back ... and either let you skip to the front of = the line or opens up an express lane just for you The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes the = same failed solution that hasn=E2=80=99t worked for the last three = decades. Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any = normal person would think of based on their personal human experience = waiting in grocery stores and airports, is not describing the solution = to bufferbloat. The solution to bufferbloat is not that if you are = privileged then you get to =E2=80=9Cskip to the front of the line=E2=80=9D= . The solution to bufferbloat is that there is no line! With grocery stores and airports people=E2=80=99s arrivals are = independent and not controlled. There is no way for a grocery store or = airport to generate backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a = queue begins to form. The key to solving bufferbloat is generating = timely backpressure to prevent the queue forming in the first place, not = accepting a huge queue and then deciding who deserves special treatment = to get better service than all the other peons who still have to wait in = a long queue, just like before. Stuart Cheshire