From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43D263CB40; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 14:33:44 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1680114819; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=gDcyR0GrRBDGRww7kwQF5TWyir3JAEU2FaC9EyU49is=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=A+ehsAh2m17CGnbiz5g8h7mvaKKhPqaaEEhf0OrhP9a62Fh9fbj4jLu0NIbvZCDhn PwdHptoItSrK2icG8HT3Si19Ge3yim0d1Zroo9N/+fjj2h2VAnVcg747aU46k7h6Um sZKHM3c1V2F7a1Hw+YFx90h6bQ2bEaggeaHQBoYOU6rXLPJYGNrWr9kBqfNEG0Jy6g DnMB2utixu3CDZJQsn/icvDSUyY2xELrd/i0UO1VkPghQB9UttwB91UgUWVF77ABra wVJn5U0fAZ/C6qQvEHGR3dlTYAGf4pQWCzzWnJtBi8y8G8tQc7RNx2UdDdmXfmybJi uzeo9rlAvtq/g== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.1.247.9]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mi2Jt-1qLLHe1I1J-00e2Ho; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 20:33:39 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 20:33:38 +0200 Cc: dan , Dave Collier-Brown , libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9765B0CB-6E7D-4245-93E7-0011B7C05C03@gmx.de> References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <2885829.1679221616@dyas> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> <6qnq34os-3qss-s4q7-s286-2s49q890q920@ynat.uz> <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <08526EAC-7EA3-4BFA-A231-B2935E09C8AC@gmx.de> <716ECAAD-E2EE-4647-9E73-D60BF8BF9C1E@searls.com> To: Jeremy Austin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:mhMV/KG2/CNtLF0VLETwqE4sEex+5El4zw7FDgYlzvixPG9oxdD WVnaF9Hr4g1G0qmywBWj5PkLMLNKtf2WX2iWVbyd4FDFnmVp3LzXk8wXWJGORquiG7tqUtV v/WY0LzBfcZ4ZYTNPDug1Yn1lhIEXnafwogvuW6wkkPs7hFAusDejVF69FCsbxXD8xcZdHh nJqPnuOTxivxU7eXSgXcQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:h4xLzNRsO9I=;D1xLJknD3Gkl9R4P+Nc22fJ1Kb5 qqBqFvFAE/JaKVxNNP8zneshso5R4I4yYRIN6fux8PmBAkO14BMF1cZxPZ/CTYdziqs1UmimV VMEzR1GzJCa58qJ8LzcNxtO13xs2QjqFORIzvTiitkse0w4fALoEcP3lSwoZ5q3XGxBVUAnuO XY/V4bXnolXvITP4mzzOQq6AQ/U7uez3/5qp+lVAA+tjYPmNVJUOsl9YD5WIq2fe3PVi2FfsX mvV5PVcA+XYInA+vqMXwDcSxbfZdj/aB4qLC/njA6mexGtBOtXydqOKN6FlmgYMtzweMuipe+ Dxu2AYpm9DGWtuwR2yr3P7Rrzn42YYTxUTO4hbvdqf7w2m9tJyZYEyvKMCGPtcxMR1YsZZZkv cQzgX3cEyYUDf8Kv9wFGJtwYpwp9RM7YkkZz3NSYcv/tasJnq7bnwlXRd4fOeoxUxHpyS6rMR v6BJ6xxGRcCRF41YndeXl9G0bInDsoaOKICVB+9bskZTp4WBWwqvZf95OFvWfyzIX234LP8EJ crQ3PpX4YVu5pZIY19Y0FwuHXHVDmX3vNFh92el7xS4oQvpLaAWlnoxtfr7fAtMnIc2tJmhlj NrkWzfc6pdxAdPVldsyWxYL4QUFdItXuQeqCqGEmIL5Zyx3uSU1nR4ikVuQpVhzo+tGWrq1lK TvGbmyWzDY1fdkUEsbyk4zkhqoZ24gqcuBZt+QNdE1diMcSn0A75RZP1u7HJpKRzc31e4HT88 l7NDIM+OyqPkZrgTmvIgL6brkdGraGgFNr/OQGghB7mQUTQvYx0FJUJ1zjI0cdyMI8r2iaqQd 6tEg7JlJS5O6t10xvY10ZeBbYqYJkAJdU/Wg28+n4/oy7pRyX82gtGqihx+NedTNdfXEXtoCZ usj8TO58YHCQOrH3OfmbNhNSdvsQLJz1M7Mp0Ygux591q0pW41xQXklfCp37dFw/8vQJ9H5Pr bSgPIg== Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] Enabling a production model X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 18:33:44 -0000 Hi Jeremy, > On Mar 29, 2023, at 18:53, Jeremy Austin via Starlink = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 6:54 AM dan via LibreQoS = wrote: > The obvious solution is to foster competition. Anywhere you overlay = cable companies with fiber BOTH companies remain and compete against = each other and the cable company increases upload speeds. If fiber was = so naturally superior, the cable companies would be erased. I have MSP = customers in multiple markets with competing techs and it's VERY nice to = be able to get fiber and cable or terragraph and cable to a business for = resilience. I cannot do that on single product dominated markets. The = 'exchange' model above doesn't do it because of that single point of = failure of the municipal fiber. >=20 > To say categorically that competition is the only solution = disenfranchises the sparse edge where it doesn=E2=80=99t pay to have a = *single* terrestrial incumbent, let alone two. >=20 > Yes, we will have StarLink, and perhaps eventually some competition to = it (Bezos), but there is no escaping the reality that competition in the = last mile destroys value. >=20 > Between StarLink densities and this utopia where both fiber and cable = can afford to build (and maintain!) enough customers lie a giant = wasteland =E2=80=94 not enough customers for lines, too many for LEO. = Fixed Wireless Access helps, but even in that context competition = destroys value. Let's be real, even a dwelling unit that can choose between = LTE/5G, DOCSIS-cable and FTTH really will be limited to a low single = digit number of ISPs, that is still an oligopoly situation, and we know = that competition/markets do not work well in such situations. > You can have subsidy (=E2=80=9CBroadband for All=E2=80=9D OR consumer = choice, not both. I argue that if e.g. the same set of "hands" that = builds/maintains the access roads to the dwelling units would also = deploy dark fiber concentrated in a few large enough "exchanges", can = actually offer consumer choice (by enabling ISPs to do what they do = best, offer internet access service lighting-up those dark fibers) and = broadband for all... (sooner or later, roll-out still takes a long = while...) > At this point I would hold up an Omnibus-podcast-like sign = =E2=80=9CCompatible With Marxism=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=9CNot Compatible = With Marxism=E2=80=9D, but I=E2=80=99m not sure which. \ ;) >=20 > $.02 > Jeremy >=20 > --=20 > =09 > Jeremy Austin > Sr. Product Manager > Preseem | Aterlo Networks > Book a call: https://app.hubspot.com/meetings/jeremy548 > 1-833-773-7336 ext 718 | 1-907-803-5422 > jeremy@aterlo.com > www.preseem.com > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink