From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33F8E3B29D for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id g20so11297320qkk.1 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2021 05:46:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=eZva8gYeLdYTC43Ik1K8DQisdnxJFh6sRCQcv3GnSaA=; b=eSB3d16aEi7r2qF89a8JUWvHqXiGM0o9gGRrlxpabYYDPETZA09Qff7tQQN6NUsTdr qtqM1N7paRF9Ch1Jy9aTLfCjHIPMJbbIslFNEmvTjckwl4rZV9csIK10Pcdp4F/feWC5 WakCa9Hg5mgOquZ5Jj++YLGG9oZcqYlLSCMdOvuTD76NwWb6jSFS+TA2S/dkN1pl8ycq Dg5phCpVyTBDXqaoueM4/w3ubXdSFXCTM23t64r+W+TGiByNMt2MDKQJ0Orvm5mspgAO SyxwbAThi/fIC3tcZ7veo/stIld8gol5IcJ8yqwnPQxFFjgI7aRJqUV27408kXtMhRXd Isbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=eZva8gYeLdYTC43Ik1K8DQisdnxJFh6sRCQcv3GnSaA=; b=sbbcZpaRg/kdJEKTLWtMufE71h9Fb11YiZukL+ism213ITX0NyduhiWIyto38Y7M8t fH7Nmx6JZ7WPaJvpX9ObN9Bhq2AyKLWQcnPe63iCbO91kJq5mSmcmozNPn0DCmU2lS6b a0dKw4lgu1FyuQJ+pNnZduGOQ0ihy6p+Dehd5ltCNHDNh5XcQhrvY3NEz8c6l5JeyTq9 w3sStbHcMWnMp9RWfMal4N1tT4Q7iUmFWvs18+U13YfwB1VhiwAMKaO7QA0obCMsc4DI zjm5wxLhe6ohxyFaA4BVIfajtDu97UvPKo98lpHy4W9TZ7Z8tYAdJpCewjSz9q/mSkiX 5kYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530aCI0E8i1K/FKbnStPOFdyrPmOIp4SPZYY07ieUU/ezPd9zlcW CPmTTPTvVXudjr9f+Tf9sMbFfKMJXsUU0Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJySZ2IoqkjschaiXD60S35B0oFpbb5Cq5kY8hYj9aMV/PFPpMMa8kGSVhMSsQHuo2KaGOnxRg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:65d4:: with SMTP id z203mr23584215qkb.254.1617626776384; Mon, 05 Apr 2021 05:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from richs-mbp-pro.lan ([198.55.239.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z188sm13560270qkb.40.2021.04.05.05.46.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Apr 2021 05:46:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: <9A233C8C-5C48-4483-A087-AA5FE1011388@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:46:15 -0400 To: bloat , "Richard E. Brown" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Subject: [Bloat] Questions for Bufferbloat Wikipedia article X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 12:46:17 -0000 Dave T=C3=A4ht has put me up to revising the current Bufferbloat article = on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufferbloat) Before I get into it, I want to ask real experts for some guidance... = Here goes: 1) What is *our* definition of Bufferbloat? (We invented the term, so I = think we get to define it.)=20 a) Are we content with the definition from the bufferbloat.net site, = "Bufferbloat is the undesirable latency that comes from a router or = other network equipment buffering too much data." (This suggests = bufferbloat is latency, and could be measured in seconds/msec.) b) Or should we use something like Jim Gettys' definition from the Dark = Buffers article (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5755608), = "Bufferbloat is the existence of excessively large (bloated) buffers in = systems, particularly network communication systems." (This suggests = bufferbloat is an unfortunate state of nature, measured in units of = "unhappiness" :-)=20 c) Or some other definition? 2) All network equipment can be bloated. I have seen (but not really = followed) controversy regarding the amount of buffering needed in the = Data Center. Is it worth having the Wikipedia article distinguish = between Data Center equipment and CPE/home/last mile equipment? = Similarly, is the "bloat condition" and its mitigation qualitatively = different between those applications? Finally, do any of us know how = frequently data centers/backbone ISPs experience buffer-induced = latencies? What's the magnitude of the impact? 3) The Wikipedia article mentions guidance that network gear should = accommodate buffering 250 msec of traffic(!) Is this a real "rule of = thumb" or just an often-repeated but unscientific suggestion? Can = someone give pointers to best practices? 4) Meta question: Can anyone offer any advice on making a wholesale = change to a Wikipedia article? Before I offer a fork-lift replacement I = would a) solicit advice on the new text from this list, and b) try to = make contact with some of the reviewers and editors who've been = maintaining the page to establish some bona fides and rapport... Many thanks! Rich=