[Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jim Gettys]

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My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It
was supposed to go up 7pm ET).

https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/

We will push this on social media first thing in the morning.  Those of you
in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling in the
morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).

Thank you all for all of your help.  I have tried to credit everyone
appropriately as best I can.

All the best,

Jim

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Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[erik.taraldsen]

Good post!  I'm spreading this internally in Telenor (ISP and mobile operation).  Trying to educate the Mobile side before we start building 5G.


-Erik



________________________________
Fra: Bloat <bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> på vegne av Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org>
Sendt: 12. februar 2018 02:11
Til: bloat
Emne: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It was supposed to go up 7pm ET).

https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/

We will push this on social media first thing in the morning.  Those of you in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling in the morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).

Thank you all for all of your help.  I have tried to credit everyone appropriately as best I can.

All the best,

Jim

Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jim Gettys]

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The IETF blog copy is up.

I gather the IETF home page is next, sometime later today or tomorrow.
                          - Jim


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:09 AM, <erik.taraldsen@telenor.com> wrote:

> Good post!  I'm spreading this internally in Telenor (ISP and mobile
> operation).  Trying to educate the Mobile side before we start building 5G.
>
>
> -Erik
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Fra: Bloat <bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> på vegne av Jim Gettys <
> jg@freedesktop.org>
> Sendt: 12. februar 2018 02:11
> Til: bloat
> Emne: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.
>
> My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It
> was supposed to go up 7pm ET).
>
> https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/
>
> We will push this on social media first thing in the morning.  Those of
> you in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling in
> the morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).
>
> Thank you all for all of your help.  I have tried to credit everyone
> appropriately as best I can.
>
> All the best,
>
> Jim
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>

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Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jim Gettys]

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Anyone on the list a budding poet, interested in taking my text and
composing a poem
something like the original by Saxe?  That would be quite a hoot, if it can
be done.
               Your non-poetic friend,

                                   Jim


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:

> The IETF blog copy is up.
>
> I gather the IETF home page is next, sometime later today or tomorrow.
>                           - Jim
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:09 AM, <erik.taraldsen@telenor.com> wrote:
>
>> Good post!  I'm spreading this internally in Telenor (ISP and mobile
>> operation).  Trying to educate the Mobile side before we start building 5G.
>>
>>
>> -Erik
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Fra: Bloat <bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> på vegne av Jim Gettys <
>> jg@freedesktop.org>
>> Sendt: 12. februar 2018 02:11
>> Til: bloat
>> Emne: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.
>>
>> My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It
>> was supposed to go up 7pm ET).
>>
>> https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/
>>
>> We will push this on social media first thing in the morning.  Those of
>> you in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling in
>> the morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).
>>
>> Thank you all for all of your help.  I have tried to credit everyone
>> appropriately as best I can.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>
>

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Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jonathan Morton]

> On 12 Feb, 2018, at 4:36 pm, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:
> 
> Anyone on the list a budding poet, interested in taking my text and composing a poem
> something like the original by Saxe?  That would be quite a hoot, if it can be done.

I can make a start:

It was few men of industry,
	To learning much inclined,
Who sought to fix the Internet,
	(With market share in mind),
That evil of congestion,
	Might soon be left behind.

Definitely, the pipe-men say,
	A wider link we laud,
For congestion occurs only
	When bandwidth exceeds baud.
If only the reverse were true,
	We would all live like lords.

[...]

And so these men of industry,
	Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion,
	Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
	Yet mostly in the wrong!

So, oft in technologic wars,
	The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance,
	Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Internet,
	Not one of them has seen!

Let's see if I can fill in a few more stanzas...

 - Jonathan Morton

Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jim Gettys]

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Love it!

Jim

On Feb 12, 2018 1:39 PM, "Jonathan Morton" <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote:

> > On 12 Feb, 2018, at 4:36 pm, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone on the list a budding poet, interested in taking my text and
> composing a poem
> > something like the original by Saxe?  That would be quite a hoot, if it
> can be done.
>
> I can make a start:
>
> It was few men of industry,
>         To learning much inclined,
> Who sought to fix the Internet,
>         (With market share in mind),
> That evil of congestion,
>         Might soon be left behind.
>
> Definitely, the pipe-men say,
>         A wider link we laud,
> For congestion occurs only
>         When bandwidth exceeds baud.
> If only the reverse were true,
>         We would all live like lords.
>
> [...]
>
> And so these men of industry,
>         Disputed loud and long,
> Each in his own opinion,
>         Exceeding stiff and strong,
> Though each was partly in the right,
>         Yet mostly in the wrong!
>
> So, oft in technologic wars,
>         The disputants, I ween,
> Rail on in utter ignorance,
>         Of what each other mean,
> And prate about an Internet,
>         Not one of them has seen!
>
> Let's see if I can fill in a few more stanzas...
>
>  - Jonathan Morton
>
>

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Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jim Gettys]

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Ok, I've revised the posting.

Jonathan Morton came through with a poem. ;-).

Our apologies to John Godfrey Saxe.

There's still a bit of polish maybe possible.  I'd like to get the idea of
"there lies madness" into the stanza on economics.

Have a good chuckle!
                                               - Jim


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:07 PM, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:

> Ok, I put the poem up as is.
>
> Think about that stanza overnight.
>
> Clearly, it's the "Six men of Interstan" ;-).  I tweaked those words.
>
> Jim
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> > On 13 Feb, 2018, at 1:33 am, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Somehow I want to get the "there lies madness" theme in.
>>
>> I'll have to sleep on that one.  It's difficult to say precisely what you
>> want within a fixed number of syllables, while also keeping to rhyme and
>> metre.
>>
>>  - Jonathan Morton
>>
>>
>

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Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jonathan Morton]

> On 13 Feb, 2018, at 2:13 am, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:
> 
> There's still a bit of polish maybe possible.  I'd like to get the idea of "there lies madness" into the stanza on economics.

How about this:

But count the cost, if bandwidth had
	No end, money-men say,
Perpetual upgrade cycle;
	True madness lies that way.
To keep demand in check requires
	Each byte a toll to pay.

 - Jonathan Morton

Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jonathan Morton]

> On 13 Feb, 2018, at 2:13 am, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:
> 
> There's still a bit of polish maybe possible.

Another tiny tweak to the Diffserv stanza:

But choosing which is which presents
	New problems in all arts.

 - Jonathan Morton

Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jan Ceuleers]

On 12/02/18 02:11, Jim Gettys wrote:
> My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It
> was supposed to go up 7pm ET).
> 
> https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/
> 
> We will push this on social media first thing in the morning.  Those of
> you in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling
> in the morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).
> 
> Thank you all for all of your help.  I have tried to credit everyone
> appropriately as best I can.

Jim, an important audience for this blog is in China - that's where a
lot of the R&D of home routers happens. I know that China is currently
rushing to get things finished before Chinese New Year. I submit that
you need to think about a relaunch when China is back.

Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jim Gettys]

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On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 12/02/18 02:11, Jim Gettys wrote:
> > My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It
> > was supposed to go up 7pm ET).
> >
> > https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/
> >
> > We will push this on social media first thing in the morning.  Those of
> > you in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling
> > in the morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).
> >
> > Thank you all for all of your help.  I have tried to credit everyone
> > appropriately as best I can.
>
> Jim, an important audience for this blog is in China - that's where a
> lot of the R&D of home routers happens. I know that China is currently
> rushing to get things finished before Chinese New Year. I submit that
> you need to think about a relaunch when China is back.
>

​Good point.

And they play musical chairs over New Years too.
                                    - Jim
​

> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>

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Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Dave Taht]

I would certainly like to see translations and outreach into China...
Taiwan... Japan... India... Central and South America... Africa...

but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
not, when?"

Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jan Ceuleers]

On 12/02/18 18:55, Dave Taht wrote:
> I would certainly like to see translations and outreach into China...
> Taiwan... Japan... India... Central and South America... Africa...
> 
> but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
> vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
> not, when?"

Devil's advocate: "I don't intend to implement this because, as the
document says, it is only intended for examination, experimental
implementation and evaluation. I make real products, not experimental-ones."

Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jonathan Morton]

> On 12 Feb, 2018, at 8:13 pm, Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
>> vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
>> not, when?"
> 
> Devil's advocate: "I don't intend to implement this because, as the
> document says, it is only intended for examination, experimental
> implementation and evaluation. I make real products, not experimental-ones."

In which case it might be helpful to have ready a list of a number of "experimental" RFCs, to which common product categories can be expected to conform already.  There might be a surprising number of them.

 - Jonathan Morton

Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Dave Taht]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:13 AM, Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/02/18 18:55, Dave Taht wrote:
>> I would certainly like to see translations and outreach into China...
>> Taiwan... Japan... India... Central and South America... Africa...
>>
>> but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
>> vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
>> not, when?"
>
> Devil's advocate: "I don't intend to implement this because, as the
> document says, it is only intended for examination, experimental
> implementation and evaluation. I make real products, not experimental-ones."
>

Certainly at the time we started the RFC (2013? sigh...), we
considered FQ_Codel experimental. After a flood of very useful papers
( a bunch of which jg cites, more on google scholar), and a ton of
actual deployment, I grew pretty confident it could actually go
standards track, but by then it was very late in the process. The
"last" patches for fq_codel arrived (and are in the RFC8290), for
doing a bulk drop on overload, and for leveraging pre-existing
(hardware or vpn offloaded) hash information only a year ago.

( https://www.mail-archive.com/aqm@ietf.org/msg01783.html )

 - but there have been continuous improvements all over the stack,
notably in the flow dissector, and there is work around it trying to
make things more lockless.

And that said, even the august, 2012, implementation of fq_codel was
and remains totally deployable.

I certainly consider the other main RFC (pie) far more experimental
than fq_codel is, as it had not seen any deployment. I'd had high
hopes we'd see it in at least one piece of Cisco's gear by now.

pie-docsis 3.1 is now available in 3 devices, so I'm looking forward
to results from there.

There are still some other pieces of work, like L2S and BBR, that
affect primarily the codel+ecn parts of the algorithm, that I hope
settle down one day.

I figure we'd aim for an rfc8290bis after, say, two more years of
deployment, somehow incorporating the work we did on "ending the
anomaly" in wifi, and I'd hope, also for a hardware and LTE
implementation.

I don't intend for what's in sch_cake to end up as an RFC. It's dual
BSD/GPL licensed and I'd hope that would be enough.

Needed is something "else" that would address the rate limiting and
queue management needs of the ISP->home part of the connection without
doing all the work on the home router. that's something that I'd hope
the chip makers were already all over. Could use a dpdk
implementation.

-- 

Dave Täht
CEO, TekLibre, LLC
http://www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-669-226-2619

Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Aaron Wood]

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I'd focus on the distributors of the Linux BSP used on those routers:  the
silicon vendors themselves.  Current routers shouldn't be shipping with 3.2
kernels, or even 3.10, and yet...  ::sigh::

I find it very frustrating they they fork the kernel for their own use,
instead of maintaining patches for the vanilla kernels.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:55 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

> I would certainly like to see translations and outreach into China...
> Taiwan... Japan... India... Central and South America... Africa...
>
> but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
> vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
> not, when?"
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>

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Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Mikael Abrahamsson]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Dave Taht wrote:

> but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
> vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
> not, when?"

Has anyone implemented FQ_CODEL in a packet accelerator, or is this still 
a CPU thing only?

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Toke Høiland-Jørgensen]

Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> writes:

> On Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Dave Taht wrote:
>
>> but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
>> vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
>> not, when?"
>
> Has anyone implemented FQ_CODEL in a packet accelerator, or is this still 
> a CPU thing only?

AFAIK it's still software-only, sadly...

-Toke

Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Toke Høiland-Jørgensen]

Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> writes:

> My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It
> was supposed to go up 7pm ET).
>
> https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/

Excellent post! And I blush at the number of times my work is cited;
thanks! :D

-Toke

Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Jonathan Foulkes]

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Wow, excellent post Jim!

Great summary of the progress and status as of this date.

It is indeed hard to believe more in the industry don’t get it or if they do, adopt it.

Also, loved this: “How many of you have successfully configured your home router QOS page, without losing hair from your head.” Which is why the IQrouter has no QoS UI, just a couple of buttons to re-start the automatic optimization run if you change service levels. Everything else is hidden. 

And there is some hope for ISPs, as a very Woke local ISP now rents / sells IQrouters to their users, as it was the only way to keep their rural DSL and Cable customers happy. But I had to spend four hours (across multiple meetings) educating them on the topic of bufferbloat and its mitigations. 

Thanks again,

Jonathan Foulkes
CEO - Evenroute.com





> On Feb 11, 2018, at 8:11 PM, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:
> 
> My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It was supposed to go up 7pm ET).
> 
> https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/ <https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/>
> 
> We will push this on social media first thing in the morning.  Those of you in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling in the morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).
> 
> Thank you all for all of your help.  I have tried to credit everyone appropriately as best I can.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Jim
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


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Re: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

[Dave Taht]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Foulkes
<jf@jonathanfoulkes.com> wrote:
> Wow, excellent post Jim!
>
> Great summary of the progress and status as of this date.
>
> It is indeed hard to believe more in the industry don’t get it or if they
> do, adopt it.

Relevant today: https://rule11.tech/reaction-the-pace-of-innovation/

>
> Also, loved this: “How many of you have successfully configured your home
> router QOS page, without losing hair from your head.” Which is why the
> IQrouter has no QoS UI, just a couple of buttons to re-start the automatic
> optimization run if you change service levels. Everything else is hidden.
>
> And there is some hope for ISPs, as a very Woke local ISP now rents / sells
> IQrouters to their users, as it was the only way to keep their rural DSL and
> Cable customers happy. But I had to spend four hours (across multiple
> meetings) educating them on the topic of bufferbloat and its mitigations.

I used to go to disbeliever's homes to set it up

I'd hope that with more makers such as you, with in the game, could
make bigger wins in the market.

AT&T, for example, still has an enormous DSL base that they could sell
 new gear into.

The market for GPON ONTs is hot, and that would be nice to tackle.
Then there's 5G....
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Jonathan Foulkes
> CEO - Evenroute.com
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2018, at 8:11 PM, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:
>
> My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It was
> supposed to go up 7pm ET).
>
> https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/
>
> We will push this on social media first thing in the morning.  Those of you
> in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling in the
> morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).
>
> Thank you all for all of your help.  I have tried to credit everyone
> appropriately as best I can.
>
> All the best,
>
> Jim
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>



-- 

Dave Täht
CEO, TekLibre, LLC
http://www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-669-226-2619