From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qg0-x235.google.com (mail-qg0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97EB82005CA for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 07:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qgez61 with SMTP id z61so37416380qge.1 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 07:50:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=3hlkNTAXSQ4gDzYnK5MdHh4SeimyD2zvbpznE8eLNns=; b=sDWlEcuSn3rcqFw0tAu6/QHzvHW9fyG2gG85YdKW3pfhRGhydEJ/UGRVMd5KRUuMmt 54HPjV4Z6w7Q3B//XeZrnx1YBk98hid+mrvCrfr3VM7nkP3hE+z5hfmYuGQ4nyGD2v5M S42il8qNy4uTsU8VvCq7vNcIke0ohXo+SZk558+rHVHFpYKYuNKKQczUIOSny4qkUlAU H/9ovpLLFhFAKyRlQdk3cxzvhL8XCIpkmrK00Oiod1N1zbND1mLM3xvKSat7DtY2i+gb vStoRH7AnvNHV5iBnYMRmpA1pcE5luHhScRkb6d6K7myqsH7SgqC8IZC1klAJmWWRU7s icVA== X-Received: by 10.140.147.129 with SMTP id 123mr4108279qht.48.1432218302681; Thu, 21 May 2015 07:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from richs-mbp-12926.lan ([64.222.210.94]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id h133sm6517399qhc.46.2015.05.21.07.25.01 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 21 May 2015 07:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_ACA34072-C874-4D17-833D-02FE218630EB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Rich Brown In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:24:59 -0400 Message-Id: References: <58264BE0-CDBE-4739-B03D-4BAA20B13997@gmail.com> To: Jim Gettys X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Cc: bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] dslreports mockup X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:51:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ACA34072-C874-4D17-833D-02FE218630EB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Ahah! I wasn't clear. I do want One Grade to Rule Them All... But I was only talking about different Y-axis values on the latency = charts, so that a bad latency in one direction doesn't hide the details = of the transfer in the other. Rich On May 21, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: > Providing separate grades for upload and download does not make sense = to me, as interference with acks in the other direction badly hurts that = traffic. Uploads and downloads are *not* independent variables. >=20 > KISS: one grade.... > - Jim >=20 >=20 > On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Rich Brown = wrote: > That is interesting. I'm trying to think how the latency charts could = be misconstrued, since a Y-axis on the right isn't the norm - I don't = think it's hard to understand, but just different. >=20 > The display as-is clearly shows that the download is badly bloated, = but the upload is fine. That's the important message for most people at = home. But as a researcher, you want to understand the details of the = upload. So having different scales would help you see better into the = problem. >=20 > * If the download and upload values are substantially similar, the = left and right Y-axis scales should be the same, so there wouldn't be = confusion >=20 > * If the values are substantially different (as in this screen shot), = the pink and yellow backgrounds (on the left) and the lack of them on = the right would provide a solid cue that there is something different = going on between the two charts. >=20 > * On the other hand, the report already shows different Y-axis values = for the down/upload speeds, so the latency charts could mimic the = speeds... >=20 > Other thoughts? >=20 > Rich >=20 > On May 20, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >=20 > > I wanted to be able to have separated charts for up and down on > > different scales, so I took apart what exists today in gimp and got > > this: > > > > http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/dslreportsmockup.png > > > > I guess it is partially because I am getting a C on the download at > > this speed, and no A+ on the upload, and I would at least like to = get > > a gold star from teacher for effort. :/ > > > > I dunno how to fix the download short of getting rid of several > > seconds of inherent buffering in their CMTS. There must be a simple > > way to do that?? > > > > -- > > Dave T=E4ht > > Open Networking needs **Open Source Hardware** > > > > https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EricRaymond/posts/JqxCe2pFr67 > > _______________________________________________ > > Bloat mailing list > > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >=20 --Apple-Mail=_ACA34072-C874-4D17-833D-02FE218630EB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Ahah! = I wasn't clear. I do want One Grade to Rule Them = All...

But I was only talking about different Y-axis = values on the latency charts, so that a bad latency in one direction = doesn't hide the details of the transfer in the = other.

Rich

On May = 21, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> = wrote:

Providing separate grades for upload and = download does not make sense to me, as interference with acks in the = other direction badly hurts that traffic. Uploads and downloads are = *not* independent variables.

KISS: one grade....
      =             - Jim


On Thu, May 21, = 2015 at 9:45 AM, Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com> = wrote:
That is interesting. = I'm trying to think how the latency charts could be misconstrued, since = a Y-axis on the right isn't the norm - I don't think it's hard to = understand, but just different.

The display as-is clearly shows that the download is badly bloated, but = the upload is fine. That's the important message for most people at = home.  But as a researcher, you want to understand the details of = the upload. So having different scales would help you see better into = the problem.

* If the download and upload values are substantially similar, the left = and right Y-axis scales should be the same, so there wouldn't be = confusion

* If the values are substantially different (as in this screen shot), = the pink and yellow backgrounds (on the left) and the lack of them on = the right would provide a solid cue that there is something different = going on between the two charts.

* On the other hand, the report already shows different Y-axis values = for the down/upload speeds, so the latency charts could mimic the = speeds...

Other thoughts?

Rich

On May 20, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> = wrote:

> I wanted to be able to have separated charts for up and down on
> different scales, so I took apart what exists today in gimp and = got
> this:
>
> http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/dslreportsmockup.pn= g
>
> I guess it is partially because I am getting a C on the download = at
> this speed, and no A+ on the upload, and I would at least like to = get
> a gold star from teacher for effort. :/
>
> I dunno how to fix the download short of getting rid of several
> seconds of inherent buffering in their CMTS. There must be a = simple
> way to do that??
>
> --
> Dave T=E4ht
> Open Networking needs **Open Source Hardware**
>
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EricRaymond/posts/JqxCe2pFr= 67
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

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