[Bloat] fcc input

[Bloat] fcc input

[Dave Taht]

https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/22/22345533/fcc-broadband-data-collection-program-fix-the-internet

Although I would like to pull together a loud and organized campaign
about bufferbloat
to the FCC, a few letters here or there, might start to help. We could
definitely use some new rhetoric....

-- 
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman

dave@taht.net <Dave Täht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729

Re: [Bloat] fcc input

[Jonathan Foulkes]

Agreed, we need to be more vocal.

I did look up my home address, and wonder of wonders it was mostly correct.

Windstream claims they provide fiber (1000/1000) in my census track, but the only fiber they have goes to their HFC nodes that then feeds coax to the home. Best one can get is 1000/35. Not that I’m complaining, as I was stuck on 12 / 0.76 DSL for >decade.

So ISPs are stretching the truth with some of the self-reported info. 

Cheers,

Jonathan

> On Mar 23, 2021, at 12:11 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/22/22345533/fcc-broadband-data-collection-program-fix-the-internet
> 
> Although I would like to pull together a loud and organized campaign
> about bufferbloat
> to the FCC, a few letters here or there, might start to help. We could
> definitely use some new rhetoric....
> 
> -- 
> "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
> relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman
> 
> dave@taht.net <Dave Täht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] fcc input

[Aaron Wood]

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I'm still surprised at how hard it is to get people to understand that the
problem they're having (especially with real-time video like Zoom) isn't
bandwidth, but jitter and bloat...

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 12:52 PM Jonathan Foulkes <jf@jonathanfoulkes.com>
wrote:

> Agreed, we need to be more vocal.
>
> I did look up my home address, and wonder of wonders it was mostly correct.
>
> Windstream claims they provide fiber (1000/1000) in my census track, but
> the only fiber they have goes to their HFC nodes that then feeds coax to
> the home. Best one can get is 1000/35. Not that I’m complaining, as I was
> stuck on 12 / 0.76 DSL for >decade.
>
> So ISPs are stretching the truth with some of the self-reported info.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jonathan
>
> > On Mar 23, 2021, at 12:11 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/22/22345533/fcc-broadband-data-collection-program-fix-the-internet
> >
> > Although I would like to pull together a loud and organized campaign
> > about bufferbloat
> > to the FCC, a few letters here or there, might start to help. We could
> > definitely use some new rhetoric....
> >
> > --
> > "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
> > relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman
> >
> > dave@taht.net <Dave Täht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bloat mailing list
> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>

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Re: [Bloat] fcc input

[Kenneth Porter]

--On Friday, March 26, 2021 10:58 AM -0700 Aaron Wood <woody77@gmail.com> 
wrote:

> I'm still surprised at how hard it is to get people to understand that the
> problem they're having (especially with real-time video like Zoom) isn't
> bandwidth, but jitter and bloat...

Speed is easy to understand. I see a similar issue with space travel fans, 
who have trouble grasping how acceleration, not velocity, is the important 
factor in that domain. And when velocity is a factor, it's the vector, not 
the scalar, that counts. If only people got decent math educations....

Jitter and bloat aren't intuitive and need a lot more thinking and patience 
to understand. Perhaps we need a good animated cartoon to explain it.

Re: [Bloat] fcc input

[Dave Taht]

I have often thought hard about trying to explain things better via
animations, and on more than one occasion tried to find an animator
who could turn this old 8m talk from "people as packets" into "unruly
animals as packets".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb-UnHDw02o&t=1657s

But that requires both money and time, and I've usually had neither.
Grant money would be nice for a whole string of educational videos,
but not being part of the MICA complex has made that difficult. If I
ever get caught up on bills, and some other pressing problems, perhaps
we could do a kickstarter campaign to get some things animated.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 12:05 PM Kenneth Porter <shiva@sewingwitch.com> wrote:
>
> --On Friday, March 26, 2021 10:58 AM -0700 Aaron Wood <woody77@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I'm still surprised at how hard it is to get people to understand that the
> > problem they're having (especially with real-time video like Zoom) isn't
> > bandwidth, but jitter and bloat...
>
> Speed is easy to understand. I see a similar issue with space travel fans,
> who have trouble grasping how acceleration, not velocity, is the important
> factor in that domain. And when velocity is a factor, it's the vector, not
> the scalar, that counts. If only people got decent math educations....
>
> Jitter and bloat aren't intuitive and need a lot more thinking and patience
> to understand. Perhaps we need a good animated cartoon to explain it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat



-- 
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman

dave@taht.net <Dave Täht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729

Re: [Bloat] fcc input

[Kenneth Porter]

--On Friday, March 26, 2021 1:09 PM -0700 Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> 
wrote:

> I have often thought hard about trying to explain things better via
> animations, and on more than one occasion tried to find an animator
> who could turn this old 8m talk from "people as packets" into "unruly
> animals as packets".

I keep encouraging fellow space fans to go play with Kerbal Space Program. 
Perhaps there's a video game or engine out there that would be useful for 
rendering our concepts.

I'm not a particularly visual person so nothing comes to mind. But I 
suggest that a first step would be a story board, just some scribbled 
sketches to get started. With that we might get some input from hobbyist 
animators out there.

Re: [Bloat] fcc input

[Dave Taht]

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 12:23 PM Kenneth Porter <shiva@sewingwitch.com> wrote:
>
> --On Friday, March 26, 2021 1:09 PM -0700 Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I have often thought hard about trying to explain things better via
> > animations, and on more than one occasion tried to find an animator
> > who could turn this old 8m talk from "people as packets" into "unruly
> > animals as packets".
>
> I keep encouraging fellow space fans to go play with Kerbal Space Program.

My spacex song references that. I've lost a LOT of time to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjur0RG-v-I

> Perhaps there's a video game or engine out there that would be useful for
> rendering our concepts.

Just completely out of my league.

> I'm not a particularly visual person so nothing comes to mind. But I
> suggest that a first step would be a story board, just some scribbled
> sketches to get started. With that we might get some input from hobbyist
> animators out there.

I would like to know what it would take to engage a professional.

> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat



-- 
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman

dave@taht.net <Dave Täht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729

Re: [Bloat] fcc input

[Jan Ceuleers]

On 26/03/2021 20:09, Dave Taht wrote:
> I have often thought hard about trying to explain things better via
> animations, and on more than one occasion tried to find an animator
> who could turn this old 8m talk from "people as packets" into "unruly
> animals as packets".
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb-UnHDw02o&t=1657s
> 
> But that requires both money and time, and I've usually had neither.
> Grant money would be nice for a whole string of educational videos,
> but not being part of the MICA complex has made that difficult. If I
> ever get caught up on bills, and some other pressing problems, perhaps
> we could do a kickstarter campaign to get some things animated.

I have often admired Randall Munroe's ability to grasp and satirise
sometimes quite complex concepts. Perhaps he could be prevailed upon to
draw a bufferbloat-inspired cartoon? He publishes his work at xkcd.com
under a Creative Commons license.

Re: [Bloat] fcc input

[Matt Mathis]

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I  encourage you to collectively think about a different strategy for
framing the problem.    Rather than talk about BB, and then forever looping
back and try to explain why it is important to non-network folks, develop a
tool (or a skin for an existing tool)  that estimates the suitability of a
link to carry video conferencing  and gamer traffic, using the
language from those communities (e.g. "lag").

No explanation is needed to tell a gamer why lag is bad.
No explanation is needed to tell a musician why lag is bad for a
distributed ensemble.
Very little explanation is needed to tell a VC user why lag is bad,
since these days everybody has experienced it.

Keep the up front the language at the application layer, but down inside
reveal that the largest culprit is often excess network queueing delay
under load, AKA buffer bloat.

Although a well framed tool could have high impact, you would get even more
bang for your buck to have a semi-standard jitter metric that could be
grafted into any real time application.  The goal would be to connect the
observed (and measured) application lag to the underlying network jitter,
queueing delay and bufferbloat.

Thanks,
--MM--
The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay

We must not tolerate intolerance;
       however our response must be carefully measured:
            too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
control;
            too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.


On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 1:54 AM Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 26/03/2021 20:09, Dave Taht wrote:
> > I have often thought hard about trying to explain things better via
> > animations, and on more than one occasion tried to find an animator
> > who could turn this old 8m talk from "people as packets" into "unruly
> > animals as packets".
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb-UnHDw02o&t=1657s
> >
> > But that requires both money and time, and I've usually had neither.
> > Grant money would be nice for a whole string of educational videos,
> > but not being part of the MICA complex has made that difficult. If I
> > ever get caught up on bills, and some other pressing problems, perhaps
> > we could do a kickstarter campaign to get some things animated.
>
> I have often admired Randall Munroe's ability to grasp and satirise
> sometimes quite complex concepts. Perhaps he could be prevailed upon to
> draw a bufferbloat-inspired cartoon? He publishes his work at xkcd.com
> under a Creative Commons license.
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>

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