Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] An 8 years perspective on broadband in the usa - fcc data

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] An 8 years perspective on broadband in the usa - fcc data

[Justus]

We are using the latency under downstream load data for the paper.

Regards
Justus

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] An 8 years perspective on broadband in the usa - fcc data

[Dave Taht]

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I would characterize a goodly percentage of the bufferbloat.net members'
outputs as a war between creators and consumers, as a fight to keep
networks usable during uploads. Do you have the upload latencies over time
somewhere?

On Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:37 AM Justus via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
wrote:

> We are using the latency under downstream load data for the paper.
>
> Regards
> Justus
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>

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Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] An 8 years perspective on broadband in the usa - fcc data

[Fries, Justus]

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No, we do not have that data aggregated.

________________________________
From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
Sent: 20 June 2022 16:19:22
To: Fries, Justus
Cc: bloat; Rpm; Sam Crawford
Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] An 8 years perspective on broadband in the usa - fcc data

I would characterize a goodly percentage of the bufferbloat.net<http://bufferbloat.net> members' outputs as a war between creators and consumers, as a fight to keep networks usable during uploads. Do you have the upload latencies over time somewhere?

On Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:37 AM Justus via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
We are using the latency under downstream load data for the paper.

Regards
Justus
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

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Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] An 8 years perspective on broadband in the usa - fcc data

[Dave Collier-Brown]

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It may well* be more diagnostic than downstream latency, it's

* commonly the requests that you want to get through, so you ca get downstream flows, and

* enthusiastically avoided by the vendors as a metric (;-))


--dave c-b

[* polite Canadian for "very much"]




On 6/20/22 10:38, Fries, Justus via Bloat wrote:

No, we do not have that data aggregated.

________________________________
From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com>
Sent: 20 June 2022 16:19:22
To: Fries, Justus
Cc: bloat; Rpm; Sam Crawford
Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] An 8 years perspective on broadband in the usa - fcc data

I would characterize a goodly percentage of the bufferbloat.net<http://bufferbloat.net> members' outputs as a war between creators and consumers, as a fight to keep networks usable during uploads. Do you have the upload latencies over time somewhere?

On Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:37 AM Justus via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
We are using the latency under downstream load data for the paper.

Regards
Justus
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat



_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


--
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com<mailto:dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com> |              -- Mark Twain


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[Bloat] An 8 years perspective on broadband in the usa - fcc data

[Dave Taht]

It's not clear if they are only measuring downloads in fig 4. ?

https://vaibhavbajpai.com/documents/papers/proceedings/fcc-networking-2022.pdf


-- 
FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: [Bloat] An 8 years perspective on broadband in the usa - fcc data

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Dave,

> On Jun 19, 2022, at 17:32, Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> It's not clear if they are only measuring downloads in fig 4. ?
> 
> https://vaibhavbajpai.com/documents/papers/proceedings/fcc-networking-2022.pdf

indeed:

"The SamKnows probes measure a variety of broadband met- rics [22] over IPv4. The tests [22] covered in this paper include: multi-threaded download speed, UDP latency, UDP latency un- der load, and UDP packet loss. The tests connect to the closest measurement servers (based on round-trip time); measurement servers are hosted both off-net (outside of ISP boundary) and on-net (within ISP boundary). The off-net measurement points were hosted by Measurement Lab (M-Lab) [23] and changed to Level 3 Communications (CenturyLink) across ten cities in the US, while the on-net measurement targets are hosted by the ISPs themselves. The FCC publishes the raw data for each month [24], along with annual reports on major findings [25]. For controllability reasons, the annual MBA reports only cover measurements to the off-net locations, i.e., latency results might be inflated due to geographical distance. Thus, we also consider the on-net measurements in our analysis."

reference 22 points to https://www.fcc.gov/general/measuring-broadband-america-open-methodology
"Latency under load	Average round trip time for a series of regularly spaced UDP packets sent during downstream/upstream sustained tests"

this seems to imply that it would be mixed upload/download saturation?


But I agree that this is unclear... maybe Sam (Crawford) knows (pun intended), I do not have his email, but maybe he is on-list or someone else can relay that question?

Regards
	Sebastian


> 
> 
> -- 
> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] An 8 years perspective on broadband in the usa - fcc data

[Matt Mathis]

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Sam, see the question below about your methodology, from your FCC report.

Thanks,
--MM--
Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force to
apply it to others.
-------------------------------------------
Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.



On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 8:46 AM Sebastian Moeller via Rpm <
rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Hi Dave,
>
> > On Jun 19, 2022, at 17:32, Dave Taht via Bloat <
> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > It's not clear if they are only measuring downloads in fig 4. ?
> >
> >
> https://vaibhavbajpai.com/documents/papers/proceedings/fcc-networking-2022.pdf
>
> indeed:
>
> "The SamKnows probes measure a variety of broadband met- rics [22] over
> IPv4. The tests [22] covered in this paper include: multi-threaded download
> speed, UDP latency, UDP latency un- der load, and UDP packet loss. The
> tests connect to the closest measurement servers (based on round-trip
> time); measurement servers are hosted both off-net (outside of ISP
> boundary) and on-net (within ISP boundary). The off-net measurement points
> were hosted by Measurement Lab (M-Lab) [23] and changed to Level 3
> Communications (CenturyLink) across ten cities in the US, while the on-net
> measurement targets are hosted by the ISPs themselves. The FCC publishes
> the raw data for each month [24], along with annual reports on major
> findings [25]. For controllability reasons, the annual MBA reports only
> cover measurements to the off-net locations, i.e., latency results might be
> inflated due to geographical distance. Thus, we also consider the on-net
> measurements in our analysis."
>
> reference 22 points to
> https://www.fcc.gov/general/measuring-broadband-america-open-methodology
> "Latency under load     Average round trip time for a series of regularly
> spaced UDP packets sent during downstream/upstream sustained tests"
>
> this seems to imply that it would be mixed upload/download saturation?
>
>
> But I agree that this is unclear... maybe Sam (Crawford) knows (pun
> intended), I do not have his email, but maybe he is on-list or someone else
> can relay that question?
>
> Regards
>         Sebastian
>
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > FQ World Domination pending:
> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
> > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bloat mailing list
> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rpm mailing list
> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
>

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Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] An 8 years perspective on broadband in the usa - fcc data

[Sam Crawford]

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Thanks for the heads up.

Downstream throughput and upstream throughput are measured in indepdent
tests, they aren't mixed as the question suggests might be the case. So,
latency under downstream load is measured independently from latency under
upstream load. The raw data for both is published for the FCC project.

I've not read the paper to understand which one they are using. But I'll
take a look tomorrow.

Thanks

Sam


On Sun, 19 Jun 2022, 20:39 Matt Mathis, <matt.mathis@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sam, see the question below about your methodology, from your FCC report.
>
> Thanks,
> --MM--
> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force
> to apply it to others.
> -------------------------------------------
> Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 8:46 AM Sebastian Moeller via Rpm <
> rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> > On Jun 19, 2022, at 17:32, Dave Taht via Bloat <
>> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > It's not clear if they are only measuring downloads in fig 4. ?
>> >
>> >
>> https://vaibhavbajpai.com/documents/papers/proceedings/fcc-networking-2022.pdf
>>
>> indeed:
>>
>> "The SamKnows probes measure a variety of broadband met- rics [22] over
>> IPv4. The tests [22] covered in this paper include: multi-threaded download
>> speed, UDP latency, UDP latency un- der load, and UDP packet loss. The
>> tests connect to the closest measurement servers (based on round-trip
>> time); measurement servers are hosted both off-net (outside of ISP
>> boundary) and on-net (within ISP boundary). The off-net measurement points
>> were hosted by Measurement Lab (M-Lab) [23] and changed to Level 3
>> Communications (CenturyLink) across ten cities in the US, while the on-net
>> measurement targets are hosted by the ISPs themselves. The FCC publishes
>> the raw data for each month [24], along with annual reports on major
>> findings [25]. For controllability reasons, the annual MBA reports only
>> cover measurements to the off-net locations, i.e., latency results might be
>> inflated due to geographical distance. Thus, we also consider the on-net
>> measurements in our analysis."
>>
>> reference 22 points to
>> https://www.fcc.gov/general/measuring-broadband-america-open-methodology
>> "Latency under load     Average round trip time for a series of regularly
>> spaced UDP packets sent during downstream/upstream sustained tests"
>>
>> this seems to imply that it would be mixed upload/download saturation?
>>
>>
>> But I agree that this is unclear... maybe Sam (Crawford) knows (pun
>> intended), I do not have his email, but maybe he is on-list or someone else
>> can relay that question?
>>
>> Regards
>>         Sebastian
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > FQ World Domination pending:
>> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
>> > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Bloat mailing list
>> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rpm mailing list
>> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
>>
>

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Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] An 8 years perspective on broadband in the usa - fcc data

[Sebastian Moeller]

Matt, Sam

thank you very much. Great list!

Regards
	Sebastian


> On Jun 19, 2022, at 21:51, Sam Crawford <sam@samknows.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the heads up.
> 
> Downstream throughput and upstream throughput are measured in indepdent tests, they aren't mixed as the question suggests might be the case. So, latency under downstream load is measured independently from latency under upstream load. The raw data for both is published for the FCC project.
> 
> I've not read the paper to understand which one they are using. But I'll take a look tomorrow.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Sam
> 
> 
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2022, 20:39 Matt Mathis, <matt.mathis@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam, see the question below about your methodology, from your FCC report.
> 
> Thanks,
> --MM--
> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force to apply it to others. 
> -------------------------------------------
> Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 8:46 AM Sebastian Moeller via Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> 
> > On Jun 19, 2022, at 17:32, Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > 
> > It's not clear if they are only measuring downloads in fig 4. ?
> > 
> > https://vaibhavbajpai.com/documents/papers/proceedings/fcc-networking-2022.pdf
> 
> indeed:
> 
> "The SamKnows probes measure a variety of broadband met- rics [22] over IPv4. The tests [22] covered in this paper include: multi-threaded download speed, UDP latency, UDP latency un- der load, and UDP packet loss. The tests connect to the closest measurement servers (based on round-trip time); measurement servers are hosted both off-net (outside of ISP boundary) and on-net (within ISP boundary). The off-net measurement points were hosted by Measurement Lab (M-Lab) [23] and changed to Level 3 Communications (CenturyLink) across ten cities in the US, while the on-net measurement targets are hosted by the ISPs themselves. The FCC publishes the raw data for each month [24], along with annual reports on major findings [25]. For controllability reasons, the annual MBA reports only cover measurements to the off-net locations, i.e., latency results might be inflated due to geographical distance. Thus, we also consider the on-net measurements in our analysis."
> 
> reference 22 points to https://www.fcc.gov/general/measuring-broadband-america-open-methodology
> "Latency under load     Average round trip time for a series of regularly spaced UDP packets sent during downstream/upstream sustained tests"
> 
> this seems to imply that it would be mixed upload/download saturation?
> 
> 
> But I agree that this is unclear... maybe Sam (Crawford) knows (pun intended), I do not have his email, but maybe he is on-list or someone else can relay that question?
> 
> Regards
>         Sebastian
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
> > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bloat mailing list
> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Rpm mailing list
> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm