From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "alln-iport.cisco.com", Issuer "Cisco SSCA2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CE8621F715 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2014 09:53:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=31009; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1409244781; x=1410454381; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=cEMGhOonMnmGw4u697JRWwBu4Qur8k1sCS74+9ccdIA=; b=B6idsTuaRUcmRn2s2P2w1I3bDkj5a1lvgUEuR7j5ivgIyaPyft3paWsw U6pxVXuuMJFY9pvA96El3IkLKLkzWBt/ZvWkco5qS5Dxb60XmAtWifcID KvnfVd30mR/nzB7wuM12i0HimrjQ+lzdy65Vs+Kq3bHp1NIJDyvk1Qvnm U=; X-Files: image001.jpg : 5673 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhMFAEtd/1OtJA2N/2dsb2JhbABbgkdGU1cEykOBWwEJh08BgRsWd4QDAQEBBAECAiAIATsBDxACAQgOAwMBAQEGAQEBAggOBwcCBRABCQMCAgoUCQgCBAENBAEGAgYNiBMDEQ26Jg2FLheJf4MggUsRAQIUCRYKEQYBgy+BHQWBWI9Xg1ABXRiDYnODa4J9hlWDOYY3g15sAYEOOYEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,418,1406592000"; d="jpg'145?scan'145,208,217,145";a="73172495" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Aug 2014 16:53:00 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com [173.37.183.80]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7SGqxfH016048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 28 Aug 2014 16:52:59 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x05.cisco.com ([169.254.11.174]) by xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([173.37.183.80]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 28 Aug 2014 11:52:59 -0500 From: "Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)" To: Greg White , Jerry Jongerius , "'Rich Brown'" Thread-Topic: [Bloat] The Dark Problem with AQM in the Internet? Thread-Index: Ac++/TegXjuC8IrxQVm08Xz1mNtBdAAObqaAAF652oAAjrOJAAACxZgAAAOHnAAAAI/LgAAKHRQA Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 16:52:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <000001cfbefe$69194c70$3b4be550$@duckware.com> <000901cfc2c2$c21ae460$4650ad20$@duckware.com> <2A5BB518-351B-4598-AF79-7088D640AA06@gmail.com> <000301cfc2db$f655d3c0$e3017b40$@duckware.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.117.227.38] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_AE7F97DB5FEE054088D82E836BD15BE924E3709Exmbalnx05ciscoc_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" Subject: Re: [Bloat] The Dark Problem with AQM in the Internet? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 16:53:01 -0000 --_004_AE7F97DB5FEE054088D82E836BD15BE924E3709Exmbalnx05ciscoc_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AE7F97DB5FEE054088D82E836BD15BE924E3709Exmbalnx05ciscoc_" --_000_AE7F97DB5FEE054088D82E836BD15BE924E3709Exmbalnx05ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regarding AQM in North American HFC deployments- I also can't speak for individual Service Providers, but Greg was being mod= est and the following may be interesting. The most recent DOCSIS 3.1 specs calls for AQM in the CMTS. It specifically= calls for a specific variant of PIE that is designed with the DOCSIS MAC = layer in mind. The DOCSIS 3.0 spec is also being amended to require AQM. Bo= th specs also have recommendations to include AQM in the Cable Modems that = can be turned on in the HFC network. See http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-white-aqm-docsis-pie-00 for more detai= ls. bvs [http://www.cisco.com/web/europe/images/email/signature/logo05.jpg] Bill Ver Steeg Distinguished Engineer Cisco Systems From: bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net [mailto:bloat-bounces@lists.buffe= rbloat.net] On Behalf Of Greg White Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 12:36 PM To: Jerry Jongerius; 'Rich Brown' Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Bloat] The Dark Problem with AQM in the Internet? And again, AQM is not causing the problem that you observed. As Jonathan i= ndicated, it would almost certainly make your performance better. I can'= t speak for Comcast, but AFAIK they are on a path to deploy AQM. If their = customers start raising FUD that could change. TCP requires congestion signals. In the vast majority of cases today (and = for the foreseeable future) those signals are dropped packets. Going on a = witch hunt to find the evildoer that dropped your packet is counter product= ive. I think you should instead be asking "why didn't you drop my packet e= arlier, before the buffer got so bloated and power boost cut the BDP by 60%= ?" -Greg From: Jerry Jongerius > Date: Thursday, August 28, 2014 at 10:20 AM To: 'Rich Brown' > Cc: "bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" > Subject: Re: [Bloat] The Dark Problem with AQM in the Internet? It add accountability. Everyone in the path right now denies that they cou= ld possibly be the one dropping the packet. If I want (or need!) to address the problem, I can't now. I would have to = make a change and just hope that it fixed the problem. With accountability, I can address the problem. I then have a choice. If = the problem is the ISP, I can switch ISP's. If the problem is the mid-leve= l peer or the hosting provider, I can test out new hosting providers. - Jerry From: Rich Brown [mailto:richb.hanover@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 10:39 AM To: Jerry Jongerius Cc: Greg White; Sebastian Moeller; bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Bloat] The Dark Problem with AQM in the Internet? Hi Jerry, AQM is a great solution for bufferbloat. End of story. But if you want to= track down which device in the network intentionally dropped a packet (whe= n many devices in the network path will be running AQM), how are you going = to do that? Or how do youpropose to do that? Yes, but... I want to understand why you are looking to know which device d= ropped the packet. What would you do with the information? The great beauty of fq_codel is that it discards packets that have dwelt to= o long in a queue by actually *measuring* how long they've been in the queu= e. If the drops happen in your local gateway/home router, then it's interestin= g to you as the "operator" of that device. If the drops happen elsewhere (p= erhaps some enlightened ISP has installed fq_codel, PIE, or some other zoom= y queue discipline) then they're doing the right thing as well - they're ma= naging their traffic as well as they can. But once the data leaves your gat= eway router, you can't make any further predictions. The SQM/AQM efforts of CeroWrt/fq_codel are designed to give near optimal p= erformance of the *local* gateway, to make it adapt to the remainder of the= (black box) network. It might make sense to instrument the CeroWrt/OpenWrt= code to track the number of fq_codel drops to come up with a sense of what= 's 'normal'. And if you need to know exactly what's happening, then tcpdump= /wireshark are your friends. Maybe I'm missing the point of your note, but I'm not sure there's anything= you can do beyond your gateway. In the broader network, operators are cont= inually watching their traffic and drop rates, and adjusting/reconfiguring = their networks to adapt. But in general, it's impossible for you to have an= y sway/influence on their operations, so I'm not sure what you would do if = you could know that the third router in traceroute was dropping... Best regards, Rich --_000_AE7F97DB5FEE054088D82E836BD15BE924E3709Exmbalnx05ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Regarding AQM in North Am= erican HFC deployments-

 <= /p>

I also can’t speak = for individual Service Providers, but Greg was being modest and the followi= ng may be interesting.

 <= /p>

The most recent DOCSIS 3.= 1 specs calls for AQM in the CMTS. It specifically calls for a specific var= iant of  PIE that is designed with the DOCSIS MAC layer in mind. The DOCSIS 3.0 spec is also being amended to require AQM. Both sp= ecs also have recommendations to include AQM in the Cable Modems that can b= e turned on in the HFC network.

 <= /p>

See http:/= /tools.ietf.org/html/draft-white-aqm-docsis-pie-00 for more details.

 <= /p>

bvs

 <= /p>

3D"http://www.cisco.com/web/europe/images/email/signatur=

Bill Ver Steeg
Distinguished Engineer
Cisco Systems



 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: bloat-bo= unces@lists.bufferbloat.net [mailto:bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Greg White
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 12:36 PM
To: Jerry Jongerius; 'Rich Brown'
Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: [Bloat] The Dark Problem with AQM in the Internet?=

 

And again, AQM is not causi= ng the problem that you observed.  As Jonathan indicated, it would alm= ost certainly make your performance better.    I can't speak for Comcast, but AFAIK they are on a path to deploy AQM.  If their cu= stomers start raising FUD that could change.

 

TCP requires congestion sig= nals.  In the vast majority of cases today (and for the foreseeable fu= ture) those signals are dropped packets.  Going on a witch hunt to find the evildoer that dropped your packet is counter productive.  = ;I think you should instead be asking "why didn't you drop my packet e= arlier, before the buffer got so bloated and power boost cut the BDP by 60%= ?"

 

-Greg

 

From: Jerry Jongerius <jerryj@duckwae.com>
Date: Thursday, August 28, 2014 at 10:20 AM
To: 'Rich Brown' <rich= b.hanover@gmail.com>
Cc: "bloat@lists= .bufferbloat.net" <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Bloat] The Dark Problem with AQM in the Internet?=

 

It add accountability.&nb= sp; Everyone in the path right now denies that they could possibly be the o= ne dropping the packet.

 

If I want (or need!) to a= ddress the problem, I can’t now.  I would have to make a change = and just hope that it fixed the problem.=

 

With accountability, I ca= n address the problem.  I then have a choice.  If the problem is = the ISP, I can switch ISP’s.  If the problem is the mid-level pe= er or the hosting provider, I can test out new hosting providers.

 

- Jerry

 

 

 

From: Rich Brown [mail= to:richb.hanover@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 10:39 AM
To: Jerry Jongerius
Cc: Greg White; Sebastian Moeller; bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: [Bloat] The Dark Problem with AQM in the Internet?

 =

Hi Jerry,

 =

AQM is&= nbsp;a great solution for bufferbloat.  End of story.  But= if you want to track down which device in the network intentionally dropped a pac= ket (when many devices in the network path will be running AQM), how are you going to do that?  Or how do youpropose to do that?

 =

Yes, but... I want to un= derstand why you are looking to know which device dropped the packet. What = would you do with the information?

 =

The great beauty of fq_c= odel is that it discards packets that have dwelt too long in a queue by act= ually *measuring* how long they've been in the queue. 

 =

If the drops happen in y= our local gateway/home router, then it's interesting to you as the "op= erator" of that device. If the drops happen elsewhere (perhaps some en= lightened ISP has installed fq_codel, PIE, or some other zoomy queue discipline) then they're doing the right thing as w= ell - they're managing their traffic as well as they can. But once the data= leaves your gateway router, you can't make any further predictions.

 =

The SQM/AQM efforts of C= eroWrt/fq_codel are designed to give near optimal performance of the *local= * gateway, to make it adapt to the remainder of the (black box) network. It= might make sense to instrument the CeroWrt/OpenWrt code to track the number of fq_codel drops to come up with= a sense of what's 'normal'. And if you need to know exactly what's happeni= ng, then tcpdump/wireshark are your friends. 

 =

Maybe I'm missing the po= int of your note, but I'm not sure there's anything you can do beyond your = gateway. In the broader network, operators are continually watching their t= raffic and drop rates, and adjusting/reconfiguring their networks to adapt. But in general, it's impossible for you to have a= ny sway/influence on their operations, so I'm not sure what you would do if= you could know that the third router in traceroute was dropping...

 =

Best regards,=

 =

Rich

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