* [Bloat] Bufferbloat and Internet gaming
[not found] ` <ACE3C2B383A165488DDCB320EC6A3A6842D1EE67@Exchange.eden.idsoftware.com>
@ 2011-03-12 15:58 ` Dave Täht
2011-03-12 21:28 ` Jonathan Morton
0 siblings, 1 reply; 2+ messages in thread
From: Dave Täht @ 2011-03-12 15:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bloat
John Carmack (of armadillo aerospace[2] and idsoftware fame) gave me
permission to repost from this private email...
John Carmack <johnc@idsoftware.com> writes:
> I would really like to help, but I don't know of a good resource for
> you [for 3D visualizations of bufferbloat]. If I could clone myself a
> couple times, I would put one of them on the task...
>
> Buffer bloat was a huge issue for us back in the modem days, when we
> had to contend with multiple internal buffers in modems for data
> compression and error correction, on top of the serial buffers in the
> host. Old school modem players generally have memories of "surge
> lag", where things were going smoothly until the action spiked and the
> play could then get multiple seconds of latency backed up into
> buffers.
>
> I had always advocated for query routines on the local host, because I
> would choose to not send a packet if I knew it was going to get stuck
> in a bloating buffer, but this has been futile. There is a strong
> aversion to wanting to add anything at the device driver level, and
> visibility at the OS level has limited benefits. Just the last year I
> identified some bufferbloat related issues on the iPhone WiFi stack,
> and there was a distinct lack of enthusiasm on Apple's part to wanting
> to touch anything around that.
>
> A point I would like to add to the discussion:
>
> For continuously updating data streams like games, you ideally want to
> never have more than one packet buffered at any given node, and if
> another packet arrives it should replace the currently buffered packet
> with the same source/dest address/port while maintaining the original
> position in the transmit queue. This is orthogonal to the question of
> fairness scheduling among multiple streams. Unfortunately, I suspect
> that there are enough applications that mix latency sensitive and bulk
> data transfer on the same port that it would be problematic to
> heuristically implement this behavior. Having an IP header bit asking
> for it would be ideal, but that seems unlikely to fly any time soon...
>
> I am a little doubtful of the real world benefits that can be gained
> by updating routers at end user sites, because the problem is usually
> in the download direction. A poster child case could be created with
> playing a game while doing a backup to a remote system, but that case
> should be much less common than multiple people in your house
> streaming video while you are playing a game. If you do see some good
> results, I would be interested in hearing about them and possibly
> helping to promote the results.
>
> John Carmack
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Täht [mailto:d@taht.net]
> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 10:57 AM
> To: John Carmack
> Subject: Bufferbloat and 3D visualizations
>
>
> Dear John:
>
> Thx for the retweet the other day. I know you're a really busy guy, but...
>
> Really high on our list (as network guys, not graphics guys) is
> finding someone(s) that can turn the massive amounts of data we're
> accumulating about bufferbloat into a visualization or three that can
> show the dramatic impact bloat can have for latency under load for
> voip and gaming.
>
> If you know anyone, please forward this mail.
>
> When I "see" bufferbloat, I see something like gource's visualization
> of commit history:
>
> http://www.thealphablenders.com/2010/10/new-zealand-open-source-awards/
>
> - the bloated devices in the path exploding in size as the bottleneck
> moves, and exploding as the buffers are overrun.
>
> I also see (dynamically) stuff like this, with the vertical bars
> growing past the moon on a regular basis:
>
> http://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/m.dodge/cybergeography//atlas/geographic.html
>
> We released a debloat-testing[1] tree the other day, which uses the
> eBDP algorithm for rate control on wireless and incorporates the CHOKe
> and SFB AQMs. It's far from fully baked as yet, but is quite
> promising.
>
> In addition to jg's now well known TCP traces, I'm in the process this
> week of collecting RTP traces (VOIP) which is a lot easier to look at
> than TCP's methods of ramping up and down. There are those in the
> network business that think 40ms latency and jitter are ok... :(
>
> I'm also pretty interested in the structure of how (for example) quake
> packets do timestamps and how quake compensates for latency and packet
> loss.
(Minor update from a followup mail - quake used to mix and match but
John now recommends bulk transfers be done via TCP. I am thinking ccnx or
ledbat are possible better alternatives at the moment)
>
> But I'm totally graphically untalented.
>
> --
> Dave Taht
> http://nex-6.taht.net
>
> [1] https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/bloat-devel/2011-February/000061.html
>
> Ad astra per aspera!
[2] http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home/Gallery/Videos
--
Dave Taht
http://nex-6.taht.net
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