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From: Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>
To: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: [Bloat] Network computing article on bloat
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 10:43:54 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <B4329341-8FDF-42B5-B4E6-B4C58322C3DE@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <4DB70FDA.6000507@mti-systems.com>


On 26 Apr, 2011, at 9:32 pm, Wesley Eddy wrote:

> On 4/26/2011 2:17 PM, Dave Taht wrote:
>> "Big Buffers Bad. Small Buffers Good."
>> 
>> "*Some* packet loss is essential for the correct operation of the Internet"
>> 
>> are two of the memes I try to propagate, in their simplicity. Even
>> then there are so many qualifiers to both of those that the core
>> message gets lost.
> 
> The second one is actually backwards; it should be "the Internet can
> operate correctly with some packet loss".

I would say, more accurately, that the *potential* for packet loss is necessary for correct Internet operation.

This is the same as saying that the potential for bringing individual trains to an unscheduled halt is necessary to allow railways to operate safely.  If one train is delayed, another train has to wait for it to clear the junction to avoid a collision.  If the brakes fail, they are designed to bring the train to an immediate halt rather than face the possibility of not coming to a halt when later required to.  If the signals fail, they automatically show Danger.

When congestion control fails, packet loss is inevitable.  Bigger buffers - the traditional "solution" to packet loss - only delay that fact slightly, and not even for very long.

 - Jonathan Morton


  parent reply	other threads:[~2011-04-27  7:43 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 65+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2011-04-26 17:05 Dave Taht
2011-04-26 18:13 ` Dave Hart
2011-04-26 18:17   ` Dave Taht
2011-04-26 18:28     ` dave greenfield
2011-04-26 18:32     ` Wesley Eddy
2011-04-26 19:37       ` Dave Taht
2011-04-26 20:21         ` Wesley Eddy
2011-04-26 20:30           ` Constantine Dovrolis
2011-04-26 21:16             ` Dave Taht
2011-04-27 17:10           ` Bill Sommerfeld
2011-04-27 17:40             ` Wesley Eddy
2011-04-27  7:43       ` Jonathan Morton [this message]
2011-04-30 15:56       ` Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
2011-04-30 19:18       ` [Bloat] Goodput fraction w/ AQM vs bufferbloat Richard Scheffenegger
2011-05-05 16:01         ` Jim Gettys
2011-05-05 16:10           ` Stephen Hemminger
2011-05-05 16:30             ` Jim Gettys
2011-05-05 16:49             ` [Bloat] Burst Loss Neil Davies
2011-05-05 18:34               ` Jim Gettys
2011-05-06 11:40               ` Sam Stickland
2011-05-06 11:53                 ` Neil Davies
2011-05-08 12:42               ` Richard Scheffenegger
2011-05-09 18:06                 ` Rick Jones
2011-05-11  8:53                   ` Richard Scheffenegger
2011-05-11  9:53                     ` Eric Dumazet
2011-05-12 14:16                       ` [Bloat] Publications Richard Scheffenegger
2011-05-12 16:31                   ` [Bloat] Burst Loss Fred Baker
2011-05-12 16:41                     ` Rick Jones
2011-05-12 17:11                       ` Fred Baker
2011-05-13  5:00                     ` Kevin Gross
2011-05-13 14:35                       ` Rick Jones
2011-05-13 14:54                         ` Dave Taht
2011-05-13 20:03                           ` [Bloat] Jumbo frames and LAN buffers (was: RE: Burst Loss) Kevin Gross
2011-05-14 20:48                             ` Fred Baker
2011-05-15 18:28                               ` Jonathan Morton
2011-05-15 20:49                                 ` Fred Baker
2011-05-16  0:31                                   ` Jonathan Morton
2011-05-16  7:51                                     ` Richard Scheffenegger
2011-05-16  9:49                                       ` Fred Baker
2011-05-16 11:23                                         ` [Bloat] Jumbo frames and LAN buffers Jim Gettys
2011-05-16 13:15                                           ` Kevin Gross
2011-05-16 13:22                                             ` Jim Gettys
2011-05-16 13:42                                               ` Kevin Gross
2011-05-16 15:23                                                 ` Jim Gettys
     [not found]                                               ` <-854731558634984958@unknownmsgid>
2011-05-16 13:45                                                 ` Dave Taht
2011-05-16 18:36                                             ` Richard Scheffenegger
2011-05-16 18:11                                         ` [Bloat] Jumbo frames and LAN buffers (was: RE: Burst Loss) Richard Scheffenegger
2011-05-17  7:49                               ` BeckW
2011-05-17 14:16                                 ` Dave Taht
     [not found]                           ` <-4629065256951087821@unknownmsgid>
2011-05-13 20:21                             ` Dave Taht
2011-05-13 22:36                               ` Kevin Gross
2011-05-13 22:08                           ` [Bloat] Burst Loss david
2011-05-13 19:32                         ` Denton Gentry
2011-05-13 20:47                           ` Rick Jones
2011-05-06  4:18           ` [Bloat] Goodput fraction w/ AQM vs bufferbloat Fred Baker
2011-05-06 15:14             ` richard
2011-05-06 21:56               ` Fred Baker
2011-05-06 22:10                 ` Stephen Hemminger
2011-05-07 16:39                   ` Jonathan Morton
2011-05-08  0:15                     ` Stephen Hemminger
2011-05-08  3:04                       ` Constantine Dovrolis
2011-05-08 13:00                 ` Richard Scheffenegger
2011-05-08 12:53               ` Richard Scheffenegger
2011-05-08 12:34             ` Richard Scheffenegger
2011-05-09  3:07               ` Fred Baker

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