From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-out02.uio.no (mail-out02.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:8210::71]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 545983CB40 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-mx04.uio.no ([129.240.10.25]) by mail-out02.uio.no with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1f3Mtt-0009Ny-Ta; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 16:27:05 +0200 Received: from 93-58-133-64.ip158.fastwebnet.it ([93.58.133.64] helo=[10.0.0.3]) by mail-mx04.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) user michawe (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1f3Mtt-000Dpo-29; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 16:27:05 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Michael Welzl X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15D100) In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 16:27:01 +0200 Cc: Jonathan Morton , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <50e57074-4ca5-59f7-f010-d9b2b845a8a7@rogers.com> <8DE589C3-9537-416D-AC7C-9250464869F9@gmail.com> To: Mikael Abrahamsson X-UiO-SPF-Received: Received-SPF: neutral (mail-mx04.uio.no: 93.58.133.64 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of ifi.uio.no) client-ip=93.58.133.64; envelope-from=michawe@ifi.uio.no; helo=[10.0.0.3]; X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.9, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, AWL=0.071, TVD_RCVD_IP=0.001, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: AA61386DABDD4AB8A6BC699A9FBBF3741EA019AE Subject: Re: [Bloat] Seen in passing: mention of Valve's networking scheme and RFC 5348 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:27:08 -0000 please, please, people, take a look at the ietf taps (=E2=80=9Ctransport ser= vices=E2=80=9D) working group :-) Sent from my iPhone > On 3 Apr 2018, at 14:35, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: >=20 >> On Tue, 3 Apr 2018, Jonathan Morton wrote: >>=20 >> notwithstanding). In the end, people have kept reinventing "reliable dat= agram" protocols on top of UDP, whenever they ran up against requirements th= at TCP didn't fulfil. >=20 > Yes, for multiple reasons. TCP is ossified and typically lives in the OS, b= ecause of NAT the only options for protocols that work are TCP and UDP, so i= f you want to move your "transmission stack" to userspace, your only choice i= s UDP. So enter things like QUIC and others that are mux:ed stream protocols= over UDP, which can then live in userland on all major operating systems. >=20 > This is not ideal, but it's not strange that this is happening. The only w= ay to innovate as an application/protocol developer is to use UDP. >=20 > --=20 > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat