From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bosmailout06.eigbox.net (bosmailout06.eigbox.net [66.96.188.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7CE53B29D for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2023 17:12:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.20.15.5] (helo=bosmailscan05.eigbox.net) by bosmailout06.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1pDBzf-0004yo-8s for bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 17:12:19 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alum.mit.edu; s=dkim; h=Sender:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Cc:To:From:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=AGbnQ9pmvYae4S9LEXwyqCkqVLYV084Ext+0QpG/WpE=; b=oERC60+zZnIbSl0BQR3vPiGDbT JhgYoVYIap99W6e7SGILbZ/lpm3RH/aTEhezCda7Xk9dRbbDLKpIxoRn6mEY2lbK1NHIKjbqTP3BX orFpevBWCCr4RysTKkgk8VT9AvwY8dBNZepqzMLPxg/aPUQZLyuWQoLKOmJG3Kla5ShpjYsnoS9aj 58CP/3Ny44vFr/5tu2sTxdaZdlBHoKVYpigGUcG06O6ap0t8PTHMFQ2kLKANYKZbuZG/hhvuZKnhI oMiuBz+osUGNWt7lA6Qj3V+W3BipIiqn0E8WBWJy5aUWUmP+u0SXubysoM2RSAlqpkadShh3VgrsF euyRjt/w==; Received: from [10.115.3.33] (helo=bosimpout13) by bosmailscan05.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1pDBze-0000i5-VE for bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 17:12:18 -0500 Received: from bosauthsmtp19.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.20.18.19]) by bosimpout13 with id 4mCF2900S0QhFXN01mCJGT; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 17:12:18 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=H7JAP9Qi c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9UqFsMnAB6EOkiq4MrOclQ==:117 a=nIEF4cAZMyOU5h9mcfI6lg==:17 a=RvmDmJFTN0MA:10 a=6ulraYUaiNAA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=9z4KhwH7AAAA:8 a=qNp_YjjoAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=EG7W4yiQAAAA:8 a=jU4qhlNgAAAA:8 a=Pd93pb-rUyxocfFmomIA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=biHTC44W4H76AziC2-EA:9 a=CpJuoqQX4cqBeNWK:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 a=9x6Z1owHLtSA86P_KKuR:22 a=GPpaJ-c28cifDO-wfJs0:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 Received: from c-67-180-86-211.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([67.180.86.211]:49553 helo=SRA6) by bosauthsmtp19.eigbox.net with esmtpa (Exim) id 1pDBzb-0004VN-9R; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 17:12:15 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Dick Roy" To: "'Ulrich Speidel'" , , "'rjmcmahon'" Cc: "'bloat'" References: <845161E4-474C-44A9-92D4-1702748A3DA1@jonathanfoulkes.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:12:09 -0800 Organization: SRA Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_048C_01D92046.8C1B4FE0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AQHZIHG3dgbaufONb0mR3Ayuh1yZna6OriSAgAAT6ieAAAwD4A== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE X-EN-UserInfo: f809475445fb8041985048e338e1a001:931c98230c6409dcc37fa7e93b490c27 X-EN-AuthUser: dickroy@intellicommunications.com Sender: "Dick Roy" X-EN-OrigIP: 67.180.86.211 X-EN-OrigHost: c-67-180-86-211.hsd1.ca.comcast.net X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 07 Jan 2023 19:37:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2023 22:12:19 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_048C_01D92046.8C1B4FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, so now we are all showing our age! And yes, the lexicon has become really muddied =85 generally the result of someone who doesn=92t know = (and thinking they do :-)), speaking the loudest and the longest and whaddaya know, all of a sudden we have =93speed tests=94 and =93capacity = tests=94, when really what is happening is that =93data/information/communication = rate=94 is being =93measured/estimated=94. Neither =93speed=94 nor =93capacity=94 = is being =93tested=94. Oh, for the good ole days when =85 :-)=20 =20 _____ =20 From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf = Of Ulrich Speidel via Starlink Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2023 1:17 PM To: jf@jonathanfoulkes.com; rjmcmahon Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink; bloat Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present =20 The use of the term "speed" in communications used to be restricted to = the speed of light (or whatever propagation speed one happened to be dealing with. Everything else was a "rate". Maybe I'm old-fashioned but I think talking about "speed tests" muddies the waters rather a lot. =20 --=20 ****************************************************************=20 Dr. Ulrich Speidel=20 Department of Computer Science=20 Room 303S.594 Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282=20 The University of Auckland=20 u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ =20 ****************************************************************=20 _____ =20 From: Starlink on behalf of rjmcmahon via Starlink Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 9:02 AM To: jf@jonathanfoulkes.com Cc: Cake List ; IETF IPPM WG = ; libreqos ; Dave Taht via Starlink ; Rpm ; bloat Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present=20 =20 Curious to why people keep calling capacity tests speed tests? A semi at = 55 mph isn't faster than a porsche at 141 mph because its load volume is = larger. Bob > HNY Dave and all the rest, >=20 > Great to see yet another capacity test add latency metrics to the > results. This one looks like a good start. >=20 > Results from my Windstream DOCSIS 3.1 line (3.1 on download only, up > is 3.0) Gigabit down / 35Mbps up provisioning. Using an IQrouter Pro > (an i5 x86) with Cake set for 710/31 as this ISP can=92t deliver > reliable low-latency unless you shave a good bit off the targets. My > local loop is pretty congested. >=20 > Here=92s the latest Cloudflare test: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > And an Ookla test run just afterward: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > They are definitely both in the ballpark and correspond to other tests > run from the router itself or my (wired) MacBook Pro. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Jonathan >=20 >=20 >> On Jan 4, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm=20 >> wrote: >>=20 >> Please try the new, the shiny, the really wonderful test here: >> https://speed.cloudflare.com/ =20 >>=20 >> I would really appreciate some independent verification of >> measurements using this tool. In my brief experiments it appears - as >> all the commercial tools to date - to dramatically understate the >> bufferbloat, on my LTE, (and my starlink terminal is out being >> hacked^H^H^H^H^H^Hworked on, so I can't measure that) >>=20 >> My test of their test reports 223ms 5G latency under load , where >> flent reports over 2seconds. See comparison attached. >>=20 >> My guess is that this otherwise lovely new tool, like too many, >> doesn't run for long enough. Admittedly, most web objects (their >> target market) are small, and so long as they remain small and not >> heavily pipelined this test is a very good start... but I'm pretty >> sure cloudflare is used for bigger uploads and downloads than that. >> There's no way to change the test to run longer either. >>=20 >> I'd love to get some results from other networks (compared as usual = to >> flent), especially ones with cake on it. I'd love to know if they >> measured more minimum rtts that can be obtained with fq_codel or = cake, >> correctly. >>=20 >> Love Always, >> The Grinch >>=20 >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 560 7352320-FXtz >> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________= ___ _____________________________ >> Rpm mailing list >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink ------=_NextPart_000_048C_01D92046.8C1B4FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

OK, so now we are all showing our = age! =A0And yes, the lexicon has become really muddied … generally the result = of someone who doesn’t know (and thinking they do J), speaking the = loudest and the longest and whaddaya know, all of a sudden we have “speed = tests” and “capacity tests”, when really what is happening is that = “data/information/communication rate” is being “measured/estimated”.=A0 Neither = “speed” nor “capacity” is being “tested”. Oh, for the = good ole days when … J

 

From: = Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of = Ulrich Speidel via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, January = 4, 2023 1:17 PM
To: = jf@jonathanfoulkes.com; rjmcmahon
Cc: Dave Taht via = Starlink; bloat
Subject: Re: [Starlink] = [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present

 

The use of the term "speed" in communications used to be = restricted to the speed of light (or whatever propagation speed one happened to be = dealing with. Everything else was a "rate". Maybe I'm old-fashioned = but I think talking about "speed tests" muddies the waters rather a = lot.

 

-- 
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

Department of Computer Science

Room 303S.594
Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.a= c.nz/~ulrich/
**************************************************************** =

From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on = behalf of rjmcmahon via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Sent: Thursday, January = 5, 2023 9:02 AM
To: = jf@jonathanfoulkes.com <jf@jonathanfoulkes.com>
Cc: Cake List = <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Rpm = <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>; bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] = [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present =

 

Curious to why people keep calling capacity tests speed tests? A = semi at
55 mph isn't faster than a porsche at 141 mph because its load volume is =
larger.

Bob
> HNY Dave and all the rest,
>
> Great to see yet another capacity test add latency metrics to = the
> results. This one looks like a good start.
>
> Results from my Windstream DOCSIS 3.1 line (3.1 on download only, = up
> is 3.0) Gigabit down / 35Mbps up provisioning. Using an IQrouter = Pro
> (an i5 x86) with Cake set for 710/31 as this ISP can’t = deliver
> reliable low-latency unless you shave a good bit off the targets. = My
> local loop is pretty congested.
>
> Here’s the latest Cloudflare test:
>
>
>
>
> And an Ookla test run just afterward:
>
>
>
>
> They are definitely both in the ballpark and correspond to other = tests
> run from the router itself or my (wired) MacBook Pro.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>> On Jan 4, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm
>> <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> Please try the new, the shiny, the really wonderful test = here:
>> https://speed.cloudflare.com/ >>
>> I would really appreciate some independent verification of
>> measurements using this tool. In my brief experiments it = appears - as
>> all the commercial tools to date - to dramatically understate = the
>> bufferbloat, on my LTE, (and my starlink terminal is out = being
>> hacked^H^H^H^H^H^Hworked on, so I can't measure that)
>>
>> My test of their test reports 223ms 5G latency under load , = where
>> flent reports over 2seconds. See comparison attached.
>>
>> My guess is that this otherwise lovely new tool, like too = many,
>> doesn't run for long enough. Admittedly, most web objects = (their
>> target market) are small, and so long as they remain small and = not
>> heavily pipelined this test is a very good start... but I'm = pretty
>> sure cloudflare is used for bigger uploads and downloads than = that.
>> There's no way to change the test to run longer either.
>>
>> I'd love to get some results from other networks (compared as = usual to
>> flent), especially ones with cake on it. I'd love to know if = they
>> measured more minimum rtts that can be obtained with fq_codel = or cake,
>> correctly.
>>
>> Love Always,
>> The Grinch
>>
>> --
>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would = work:
>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroo= m-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> <image.png><tcp_nup-2023-01-04T090937.211620.LTE.flent.gz>___= ____________________________________________
>> Rpm mailing list
>> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferb= loat.net/listinfo/rpm
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rpm mailing list
> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferb= loat.net/listinfo/rpm
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bu= fferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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