From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-iy0-f171.google.com (mail-iy0-f171.google.com [209.85.210.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 625F0201A6B for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 14:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iyi20 with SMTP id 20so1375742iyi.16 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 14:16:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wI28nt7944Eohpcf3A6j117ylU1gTcr5JBsamxGnQNU=; b=BMEhNSSoh6cM6mvV0Vi7QiXsCGLzrPQDjzM+v8xgo0vFcDZgU1p8+uuYuwGlkscfOc b9sDKPD3VcQMhU26316HsOVCR2uFvsfGvQw5/COrRrg9mEmnRYHFqirOSSMqOv927eyC H/wOxTuhlsL/IEFrO6vKEyAXpnkwRboNSqB78= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BU1rzuQnXiZlFPBul9fDBgqeBakWrU7YwuGA42Pvw5BhplIhMPG1PThwgpB0IVD50K B3oVdFLBtfdhOzSY5KQoAJ43Mtxwfz99vHLEeUw+lNJfoBHmtG6ExKCCd7J3aRCnza0U YwvlVJmbuuDE6ZlQlZZ4NkUL9QTK8+zFoXPGE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.48.130 with SMTP id uw2mr1512886icb.312.1303852617250; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 14:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.34.77 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 14:16:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4DB72B80.7060301@cc.gatech.edu> References: <4DB70FDA.6000507@mti-systems.com> <4DB72934.9050700@mti-systems.com> <4DB72B80.7060301@cc.gatech.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:16:57 -0600 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: Constantine Dovrolis Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Bloat] Network computing article on bloat X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 21:16:34 -0000 On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Constantine Dovrolis wrote: > Thanks Wes - I was hoping that someone will make this point. > > btw, another common reason for lossless operation is the > size of the flows. basically flows often finish before their > window increases so much that they overflow their bottleneck's > buffer. We do tend to overuse TCP for short flows, like those of the core http protocol without 1.1 pipelining. However more uptake of 1.1's pipelining would lead to more correct and timely behavior in the presence of congestion, and longer flows in the general case. That said in an age of netflix and facetime, we have problems with big flows again. > > Plz spend some time to read the following paper: > http://www.cc.gatech.edu/fac/Constantinos.Dovrolis/Papers/buffers-ton.pdf The paper above appears to be testing against networks in the USA, and at speeds higher than 1Mbit. Did you try working internationally, at speeds closer to 128Kbit? > It is very relevant to the bufferbloat initiative and it shows clearly, > I think, that statements like "Big Buffers Bad. Small Buffers Good." > are crude oversimplifications that will cause even more confusion. I think they are crude simplifications, but they lead to slightly more correct conclusions in the general case than the alternatives. I would love to have a short elevator pitch that nailed the problem adequately. > > regards > > Constantine > > On 4/26/2011 4:21 PM, Wesley Eddy wrote: >> >> >> Operating with infinite storage and operating without packet loss are >> two different things. >> >> Ideally, you may have a path with ample bandwidth such that packet >> losses don't occur and all connections are either application limited or >> receive window limitedand congestion control never kicks in. In this >> case, there's no loss and the Internet clearly works. >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Constantine Dovrolis, Associate Professor > College of Computing, Georgia Institute of Technology > 3346 KACB, 404-385-4205, dovrolis@cc.gatech.edu > http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~dovrolis/ > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --=20 Dave T=E4ht SKYPE: davetaht US Tel: 1-239-829-5608 http://the-edge.blogspot.com