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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook": https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html [https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-29b6JXMZN4g/U6nd1vJCr4I/AAAAAAAAauY/G4f091mDI80= /w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/stockholm.png] Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success The Stokab report should be required reading for all local government offic= ials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the worl... cis471.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Starlink on behalf of Sebast= ian Moeller via Starlink Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM To: David Lang Cc: dan ; Frantisek Borsik ; libreqos ; Dave Taht via Starlink ; rjmcmahon ; bloat Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comca= st chat Hi David, > On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang wrote: > > On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote: > >>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital communica= tions infrastructure as life support critical. >> >> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water (fresh= and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is mostly not cri= tical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in that direction, so = it is time to look at that from a different perspective. >> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into comm= unal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other critical infra= structure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP fiber access network= terminating in some CO-like locations a viable way to allow ISPs to compet= e in the internet service field all the while using the communally build ac= cess network for a few. IIRC this is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-= out. Just as POTS wiring has beed essentially unchanged for decades, I esti= mate that current fiber access lines would also last for decades requiring = no active component changes in the field, making them candidates for commun= al management. (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, th= ese typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life ti= mes of decades). > > This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing such a r= ollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many states have g= otten laws created that prohibit towns from building such systems. A resistance that in the current system is understandable*... btw, = my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think that the ac= cess network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want actual ISP compet= ition, the access network is the wrong place to implement it... as it is un= likely that we will see multiple ISPs running independent fibers to all/mos= t dwelling units... There are two ways I see to address this structural pro= blem: a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for "reasonab= le" prices b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the access net= work None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already see ho= w the economically more attractive PON approach throws a spanner into a), o= n a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but will not be able to= "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be possible in a PtP d= eployment, at least in theory). My subjective preference is b) as I mention= ed before, as I think that would offer a level playing field for ISPs to co= mpete doing what they do best, offer internet access service while not push= ing the cost of the access network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. Th= is would allow a fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas= to convert to FTTH first.... However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand it, a= s this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up to the inter= net and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network design in a fut= ure-proof way... Regards Sebastian *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just that I = can see why it is happening. > > David Lang _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink= __;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_sp= TDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$ --_000_BYAPR03MB3863ECC5127CB88BEEEA587BC2889BYAPR03MB3863namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":
https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/st= ockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html

3D""
The Stokab report should be required reading for all local government offic= ials. Stockholm is one of the  top Internet cities in the worl...
cis471.blogspot.com


From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Seba= stian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.= borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave= Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon <rj= mcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>; bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure = w/Comcast chat
 
Hi David,


> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>
>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital = communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>
>>       Well, let's keep things in per= spective, unlike power, water (fresh and waste), and often gas, communicati= ons infrastructure is mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clea= rly on a path in that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different perspective.
>>       Personally, I am a big fan of = putting the access network into communal hands, as these guys already do a = decent job with other critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) = and I see a PtP fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all th= e while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this is h= ow Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has beed esse= ntially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber access lines would also last for decades requi= ring no active component changes in the field, making them candidates for c= ommunal management. (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenanc= e, these typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life times of decades).
>
> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing such = a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many states hav= e gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such systems.

        A resistance that in the current= system is understandable*... btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of IS= Ps, I really just think that the access network is more of a natural monopo= ly and if we want actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple= ISPs running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are tw= o ways I see to address this structural problem:
a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for "rea= sonable" prices
b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the access net= work

None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already see ho= w the economically more attractive PON approach throws a spanner into a), o= n a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but will not be able to= "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My= subjective preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would o= ffer a level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, off= er internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access network build-out to all-fiber onto the= ISPs. This would allow a fairer, less revenue driven approach to select wh= ich areas to convert to FTTH first....

However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand it, a= s this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up to the inter= net and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network design in a fut= ure-proof way...

Regards
        Sebastian


*) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just that I = can see why it is happening.


>
> David Lang

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