From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F2B33B2A4 for ; Tue, 21 May 2024 13:33:05 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1716312779; x=1716917579; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=0DnQvEr/ULuEF8aO5Q6wERX6xx2V5OSBH32CX8v0UPk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version: Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:cc: content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=VjOjj2+A7B1om8iQY7YShJmlL8iUqDdlG8J1kBB0kdh5Za9AgVn4L2Rq6tVJEwN9 lZFe14NUqumMJUJg+ejLcopd7Zs8Gi+YtjJORwwcuTTdJhM6jlRQtF7PWDgGQEshN L3wA+TjBaSQzsokhXbGzGcYu17moh1SJtwGucf3ye/wxYCWydXeaXTV4Kx+jBL7qW VPyOhINhGQu6XIE1+vLoWuRELOlz1ZJewJ5RnI7s5rhuVV44GCu8eJTTPmpkSoIBf n//tg+M0ufUa0rtA6Jh9vE5yeF2x6SIsVPpeUD8z3VH6+qe7Pz3TXH4CSAEnueAkQ S2QpiUfW/kpOl7YpLw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([95.119.211.13]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M6DWs-1sBe9S2jEG-005Zvv; Tue, 21 May 2024 19:32:58 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B3B1FB7A-3F00-408B-B7EE-95B86D18D155" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.600.62\)) Date: Tue, 21 May 2024 19:32:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <02D6BB37-B944-478D-947F-E08EF77A7764@comcast.com> Cc: Jonathan Morton , Frantisek Borsik , bloat To: "Livingood, Jason" References: <28C0EFA5-8681-41DB-AF49-E551D1AA2A0A@gmail.com> <02D6BB37-B944-478D-947F-E08EF77A7764@comcast.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.600.62) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:sEZTl5zOXgTbjFZL9vCGh+kCJpxaYtNlzoFlpi+BGztcZp/En2Q sLmdFddW0cJGAgUYw+KDhOjas8pf10UpKqp8v9T2FGh9mx2SFuvYrDjIc07wQRnyIZhgMm+ sMOok5E8k9RARn7rUsyJzJZtgUZVUJCDq5LaWAK1W0pfe3f88TfyQqiCrYsUyUtK52ZSEj3 5Q/DLK2Ex4H7aRrdNlCjw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:Im92oNUpzxA=;N8/bvN6pL7ioQRcYQ7fGJsI1z3e TKMvlA6MsVVjoJ4BduzJRkZkTnzkEjFGIt3OhApLK2SgexsCJ93+j3J7V0hzCpe0Ie1yqjcLn 0ke5y/KF0kcyfozCqzaDFW6W/Oo93Zcbxsxx3OKJEeVAXAyinx120bLiU38PadTggu7K4RfDk Q6FbrXAJ33Hw7Sfz1tuww4th7TO+uTuEMfQKDw1T7LvznlUruVzTNmyZrsW8Vk82ZwAZ6Q+KT a0KZ/fXm+KYpjcAx8DjwpFT0WTKdUlXbq3wTYLFY14R5z+v5GcJ4yMMuZEHzw7/a2gJ4SrttF saroLEiNfBoYly0pOcDiQ23PfzOoUz/4hxLH+ZUXJTaQ1gC8CWWKW/yF+su4uv3NgBo7Puisv 8eiR81E1ZONSxEhEHGcRms+TH61ZGUjvl2d+zEWT6u/CGXdYD4QOO1WY/XfRLH8jbMFz5jk9d 3Qq/n1GL+Peg5lZos4Q5X6+rTKeVrQdVjHhqmqI954nV0j9cyUfq2dOvVSgVzuhs/1dvvX7Wu my2idDKdZhSgwKdeC4jaSP7SxDNZxkR/TkGzy+O1EHTY7pgAamW/4I6TQDBRgE7Wwv3IM1VEl 3YxaJRPiPMMEQycZmqkPY0wNNfrjAaYGVWSWmIV//VEQbgAI9Qo/ywOalI3sNtAiTUDVX1f9G PXYKMCwUL44SSiFz5/2qEM2l6yck+KJzFfe+V83oWwkSo6flSNrpE/kbCdFLRY9Vx8WrN+ZR8 dJXKHlnfCCx0dZ06eV1kLqWSyz8zujf4jJSpCpx5Z2z76+TqyleEngIw4TxYARontwF1yfJRE bwqJDYr4v4lyeDxe6+jYJewdaoB4oMLj3ZmN22Gdkijc0= Subject: Re: [Bloat] "Very interesting L4S presentation from Nokia Bell Labs on tap for RIPE 88 in Krakow this week! " X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 May 2024 17:33:06 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B3B1FB7A-3F00-408B-B7EE-95B86D18D155 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Jason, > On 21. May 2024, at 19:13, Livingood, Jason via Bloat = wrote: >=20 > On 5/21/24, 12:19, "Bloat on behalf of Jonathan Morton via Bloat = wrote: >=20 >> Notice in particular that the only *performance* comparisons they = make are between L4S and no AQM at all, not between L4S and conventional = AQM - even though they now mention that the latter *exists*. >=20 > I cannot speak to the Nokia deck. But in our field trials we have = certainly compared single queue AQM to L4S, and L4S flows perform = better.=20 >=20 >> There's also no mention whatsoever of what happens when L4S traffic = meets a conventional AQM. >=20 > We also tested this and all is well; the performance of classic queue = with AQM is fine. [SM] I think you are thinking of a different case than Jonathan, not = classic traffic in the C-queue, but L4S traffic (ECT(1)) that by chance = is not hiting abottleneck employing DualQ but the traditional FIFO... This is the case where at least TCP Prague just folds it, gives up and = goes home... Here is Pete's data showing that, the middle two bars show what happens = when the bottleneck is not treating TCP Prague to the expected = signalling... --Apple-Mail=_B3B1FB7A-3F00-408B-B7EE-95B86D18D155 Content-Disposition: inline; filename*0=687474703a2f2f7363652e646e736d67722e6e65742f726573756c74732f6c34; filename*1=732d323032302d31312d3131543132303030302d66696e616c2f73312d636861; filename*2=7274732f727474666169725f63635f71646973635f38306d735f38306d732e73; filename*3=7667.svg Content-Type: image/svg+xml; x-unix-mode=0644; name="687474703a2f2f7363652e646e736d67722e6e65742f726573756c74732f6c34732d323032302d31312d3131543132303030302d66696e616c2f73312d6368617274732f727474666169725f63635f71646973635f38306d735f38306d732e737667.svg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = --Apple-Mail=_B3B1FB7A-3F00-408B-B7EE-95B86D18D155 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii That is not really fit for use over the open internet... Regards Sebastian > > Jason > > > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --Apple-Mail=_B3B1FB7A-3F00-408B-B7EE-95B86D18D155--