From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EE803B2A4; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 22:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id b4so21365074wrs.1; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 19:45:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=J14ilUEnop2QI4w3M4SNzztyH7QJ/LjBY9hMO8PUNa0=; b=dEBq++6qHmrEEa6o0T4fkW0e9VUypFHe11TSfLGdEKOn/AhCLi5TFtcEqyZ9ZjGwVY gWTHDZgItvjDdp8voteFs8UIdcUwb/V79+YT0aXa6ZnfpEFacfvYQ1WorGoyk1rqiUvy ICF/nes+VtGi7NvGyylFAfq1huTc/kqntqThwGprPHL2OJRU6SalAeFZ5LrtUdi+zf1e A8VQTxPvrZpPzk43Uw+0+1gWlw4qnRNcKqlbyvb4b7O5wI0IQR+3AI8toFcrsKa4J9GR sTQha7gPYNWTUBBoX6yz5gslYAA2gvGYGEEADnxBwXG2bSRRYSRShl4sS76JqTuNgTvp 32uw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=J14ilUEnop2QI4w3M4SNzztyH7QJ/LjBY9hMO8PUNa0=; b=REWKfMS+LLUKqHuvHfCozcuwfEfKzxshuFvWjvfiCVQnbS9Pxyit3L4sgdjcUQofV5 n4c+uUmXuxEZisvpsQJPISWCzp1n5xMkkYeQ8ANEUZ4Mbvd0UQaLFKfcsq5NqJyuCy0F XYYTOB27vY1wXdzMOlBwreNEMpy+2jp72eNSmmlQ/E+vz7v8YUZ6/WRVXKl+RJRO6MOY JDVsQf3TRlU+BLJViPaDQd4cdE1IFUQgTag31Sd4aVWdoAe/sZ2pp3LPlWhD0ddFOSrr vJ+rP/rIaYe4tf7mgpMeYwTxMAaTM9mp7LWHkADxrHqhU3Oz6Sh7xVj2N+HHfynG/sl7 Xhig== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2fojbvtX7yDn6+0yXQhMG98WvZynqrFpAQJw6q37mubGqLK1yj d8inBY9X2fBJwHXtAouPlq9LG8OWC6zdsL0lJny2BmgD X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4vkvCdFpcZY5R0038A0X6bIv4aSUKrW5uDdZAECL41Gyd6HQzQ37Q0sgbL+hI9LRmfanbZ9UCuNiXsJsvz3hc= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5109:0:b0:22f:ed4:65da with SMTP id s9-20020a5d5109000000b0022f0ed465damr358134wrt.688.1666061100848; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 19:45:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 19:44:44 -0700 Message-ID: To: Stuart Cheshire Cc: Rpm , bloat , Make-Wifi-fast , Cake List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] The most wonderful video ever about bufferbloat X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 02:45:02 -0000 On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire wrote: > > On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast wrote: > > > This was so massively well done, I cried. Does anyone know how to get i= n touch with the ifxit folk? > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUICh3ScfNWI > > I=E2=80=99m surprised that you liked this video. It seems to me that it r= epeats all the standard misinformation. The analogy they use is the standar= d terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and the = =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D is letting certain traffic =E2=80=9Cjump the lin= e, angering everyone behind them=E2=80=9D. Accuracy be damned. The analogy to common experience resonates more. > > Some quotes from the video: > > > it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the line an= d just check out, especially since you=E2=80=99re in a hurry, but they=E2= =80=99re rudely refusing I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down well. > > to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a worker = saw you standing at the back ... and either let you skip to the front of th= e line or opens up an express lane just for you Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing. The multiple checker analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory itself. > > The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes the sa= me failed solution that hasn=E2=80=99t worked for the last three decades. Hmm? It establishes the scenario, explains the problem *quickly*, disses gamer routers for not getting it right.. *points to an accurate test*, and then to the ideas and products that *actually work* with "smart queueing", with a screenshot of the most common (eero's optimize for gaming and videoconferencing), and fq_codel and cake *by name*, and points folk at the best known solution available, openwrt. Bing, baddabang, boom. Also the comments were revealing. A goodly percentage already knew the problem, more than a few were inspired to take the test, there was a whole bunch of "Aha!" success stories and 360k views, which is more people than we've ever been able to reach in for example, a nanog conference. I loved that folk taking the test actually had quite a few A results, without having had to do anything. At least some ISPs are getting it more right now! At this point I think gamers in particular know what "brands" we've tried to establish - "Smart queues", "SQM", "OpenWrt", fq_codel and now "cake" are "good" things to have, and are stimulating demand by asking for them, It's certainly working out better and better for evenroute, firewalla, ubnt and others, and I saw an uptick in questions about this on various user forums. I even like that there's a backlash now of people saying "fixing bufferbloat doesn't solve everything" - > Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any normal pe= rson would think of based on their personal human experience waiting in gro= cery stores and airports, is not describing the solution to bufferbloat. Th= e solution to bufferbloat is not that if you are privileged then you get to= =E2=80=9Cskip to the front of the line=E2=80=9D. The solution to bufferblo= at is that there is no line! I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a better string of explanations, explaining - "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no line... at all". > > With grocery stores and airports people=E2=80=99s arrivals are independen= t and not controlled. There is no way for a grocery store or airport to gen= erate backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a queue begins to fo= rm. The key to solving bufferbloat is generating timely backpressure to pre= vent the queue forming in the first place, not accepting a huge queue and t= hen deciding who deserves special treatment to get better service than all = the other peons who still have to wait in a long queue, just like before. I am not huge on the word "backpressure" here. Needs to signal the other side to slow down, is more accurate. So might say timely signalling rather than timely backpressure? Other feedback I got was that the video was too smarmy (I agree), different audiences than gamers need different forms of outreach... but to me, winning the gamers has always been one of the most important things, as they make a lot of buying decisions, and they benefit the most for fq and packet prioritization as we do today in gamer routers and in cake + qosify. maybe that gets in the way of more serious markets. Certainly I would like another video explaining what goes wrong with videoconferencing. > > Stuart Cheshire > --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC