From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi0-x22b.google.com (mail-oi0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3C6521F284 for ; Sat, 2 May 2015 09:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by oign205 with SMTP id n205so87899415oig.2 for ; Sat, 02 May 2015 09:55:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=L4VJwhovP8/4jgjdk9Z2qCkkfJOXoN+PcM4KA4MQnc0=; b=h/XDourAa4TBINlbNB9d6CFkF7p+t92zn/pjGEsvsQnEXfRJL2ahBfIJvVIyo6+mh5 Ir9vF3FSgvTqBjEJfURrEzvHk/3+1QQEILRCbcbw1rhU5fETxTceTSiLL7u1YeC11zDA Q5jZ65Y6Ga1fOg1SUAlYUa72T9DVtJCEHVbQZyehSmXBmfhtrw4XKArv4sKD8ZtABAii ALl16qatkRHL6ZkfdvgyQ3WCQzeCurAuGw+cobX0eGBAd1VCfg29KU7knfV30z6WMbPs aZ5zh8r1TSyQcrdzLt/CKjjt+QgoAJMdT+/U8Dqi2Un8lP1FrOMvTLfPitih/oKkGSAh Mjuw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.138.68 with SMTP id qo4mr12081902obb.56.1430585716462; Sat, 02 May 2015 09:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.71.139 with HTTP; Sat, 2 May 2015 09:55:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0CEC2579-566A-4B00-9A13-B6F29641D39D@gmx.de> References: <87618e6gkm.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <58258E43-953F-4A3B-ABC0-EA4193CC67C1@gmail.com> <0CEC2579-566A-4B00-9A13-B6F29641D39D@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 09:55:16 -0700 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: Sebastian Moeller Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] extremely good dslreports result for bufferbloat on free.fr X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 16:56:00 -0000 1 probe per second IZ not enough for science! (see my forked thread) On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 8:01 AM, Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Jb, > > > On May 2, 2015, at 15:40 , jb wrote: > >> Each bar is an individual probe they go out once per second, which deter= mines their >> position along the X-Axis, and are tagged by color *when they come back*= . > > Thanks, that is exactly the information I was looking for. Given = that, I vote for reporting the maximum of the latency under load increases,= so take the mean from the pre-download test period and subtract that from = each individual download and upload RTT value, select the maximum and repor= t that. Measuring once per second is petty sparse, so no need for any fancy= reporting (also good look getting a 98%-percentile for say the 10-11 downl= oad RTTs ;) even taking all ~40 RTTs will make 98% hard to reach unless you= round=E2=80=A6 95% though will work okay-ish). > > > >> For the radar plot, the ones showing latencies to each location, it is n= othing to do >> with buffer bloat but there are two green colors super-imposed, the wors= t and the >> best of several probes per location. > > Ah, I had a hunch that would be that, thanks. > > Best Regards > Sebastian > >> >> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Sebastian Moeller wrot= e: >> Hi Jb, >> >> I wonder the ping RTT plot, does it show all individual RTT-probes, or i= s it showing an aggregate measure per bar? If aggregate which measure (hope= fully the maximum or something close like a high percentile)? >> >> >> Best Regards >> Sebastian >> >> On May 1, 2015, at 08:31 , jb wrote: >> >> > >This got an A+ rating, which I would not have given it, given the >> > enormous load spike. >> > >> > I think there will always be the occasional incorrectly graded test, >> > this one is simply because the median of the downstream latency >> > ignores the spike. If I used average(), then it would not ignore >> > the spike, however one very high outlier could also ruin a good result= . >> > After all, pinging anything on the internet can always get the odd >> > bad response now and again. >> > >> > If neither average nor median is any good, then there needs to be >> > a filter function. But what filter? ignoring spikes that are hugely hi= gher >> > than neighbouring ones? that would fail if there was a spike every 3rd >> > sample. Open to ideas.. >> > >> > Here is a result from the australian telco free public hotspot: >> > http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/399962 >> > >> > On the side of the hotspot it says 'send us your thoughts about this >> > free service'. Well my thought is that if one person posted a picture >> > to Instagram, the whole hotspot would be unusable for as long as it >> > took to upload. 6 seconds of buffer in there somewhere. >> > >> > cheers, >> > >> > On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >> > This got an A+ rating, which I would not have given it, given the >> > enormous load spike. >> > >> > http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/400387 >> > >> > Imagine if your steering wheel behaved like this. >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 8:10 PM, jb wrote: >> > > Already users are like "how can i fix this!". >> > >> > The FAQ can be improved. >> > >> > > I've just replied to one who has lower speeds on the surfboard SB614= 1 which >> > > is a modem designed for crazy cable speeds. He has an "F" and his do= wnstream >> > > bloat is terrible, and upstream not much better. >> > > >> > > I imagine a LOT of people on slower plans have a "recommended" modem= like >> > > this one. >> > >> > I have not found a cable modem with less than 250ms bloat at 50mbit/5. >> > The docsis 3 ones >> > are often in the 800 ms range. >> > >> > > >> > > However most of them will hear that the problems from bloat only hap= pen when >> > > you reach maximum upload or download speed and will think, well, I c= an live >> > > with that, I never run my connection to capacity and I don't upload = to >> > > offsite backups.. >> > >> > Latency spikes are annoying no matter how they are inflicted, and happ= en >> > all the time on nearly any workload. Your test is testing tcp in stead= y state, >> > most web transactions are bursts of dozens to a hundred flows in slow >> > start. >> > >> > It is the business class customers that feel it most often. I have nev= er >> > visited a business class cable customer that had reasonable amounts of= delay >> > and jitter during business hours. >> > >> > After living in bloat-free universe for quite some time now, annoying >> > issues with things like netflix are decreased, voip and videoconferenc= ing >> > work all the time, same for games... >> > >> > it would be hard to create a metric >> > for user satisfaction, but every before/after comparison someone >> > implementing a solution is quite overjoyed. >> > >> > https://twitter.com/mnot/status/575581792650018816 >> > >> > > >> > > On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Rich Brown wrote: >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 9:33 PM, jb wrote: >> > >> > ... >> > >> >> if it did get a rating it would be an "D" or "F".. >> > >> > >> > >> > How about "E" for error? That can be further explained in the tex= t >> > >> > "Sometimes the bloat is so bad that we cannot adaquately test for= it - >> > >> > and other times there is something else badly wrong with the link= that >> > >> > we cannot identify." >> > >> >> > >> I would stay away from a letter grade for that state, since it coul= d >> > >> appear to be on the continuum of A+, A, B, C, D, E (?) F... >> > >> >> > >> Better to give it a "-" or "?" mark. And if they hover over the "?"= , let >> > >> the text show: "Sometimes the bloat is so bad that we cannot adaqua= tely test >> > >> for it - and other times there is something else badly wrong with t= he link >> > >> that we cannot identify." >> > >> >> > >> Rich >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Dave T=C3=A4ht >> > Open Networking needs **Open Source Hardware** >> > >> > https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EricRaymond/posts/JqxCe2pFr67 >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Bloat mailing list >> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht Open Networking needs **Open Source Hardware** https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EricRaymond/posts/JqxCe2pFr67