From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi1-x234.google.com (mail-oi1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0779D3B29E for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 12:12:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x234.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3db12a2f530so2472120b6e.1 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 09:12:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1723997579; x=1724602379; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=fRhlGQIGypdTvYgvwmJNiAFLKyKXDzSG0/DXvuWkabM=; b=QeNkboQ0IwcZANV+uqG8F/yv/chJfmDQxACosVJppSSAcGCz9Oh6zI2pgki0nCHtbR Pap8gzv2gdqEr+YysvF9F3tqTewCN80DadUQhiqnTE8pxlYBugFun7dC4DaRK13MdT11 ESw2LY6VqERUE0U1mZxeInpNakhBUFLPKO7b6BxBv83dl0XlbfKM4umTvHZgWMZymM/F b+0iJdaLMw1meEHzxF32rs1ZEM67DunmEyV8uEYFgLlo6ZWIvtvTa+vLqXjc9PLofzxb Gy22zomHBU3BspPoLCd+dE6/B67N9XPPOIj3q+HniusVTQIMuAq69m7QdmHlQZVE2XWL 2aMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1723997579; x=1724602379; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=fRhlGQIGypdTvYgvwmJNiAFLKyKXDzSG0/DXvuWkabM=; b=Jekxidd35+Lwt6jcISn4Mn/DaKxnbX70pU/MTQAfIeyQ6zZ3GQ71qLKM6GqxN6ox+R 4EGpigrce3QBrwMSWmHXMK9Czam4iHf2ZawSKXH3H1Axj1a8ZYTEB87qhj67WLeFcoW1 aoO3ubE1e1xnaB+XVj+Iwzo4nuNc+xtIEF42KpCbxxJfhyfnHPVLd/cFpjPIx3PUoonT p0pC0WIDFwzGu5edrQT9xWOcYayNwZRrMPj64i1YVsIaVfZM2rE/u01i2b6qO3K1ySh+ B9LMx1Oei6/poCde5SR1028p53u4EFc6flRRyFarMKh46RQqKu7q3xddt2kByH6KNwC+ NwDQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUSIPiarNcz/l9scSTj22AqbIR2uEYIT0ic9Qv0WmLL2r56gRE5gkwA4hLkfFmlJ5KqmIqtdM1oPh5MfGrbWt/J/PP82To4+gt5ct4= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyhB62VRFrHtRZman31901n4SXoB9XtXnLB8b/ojaFDJSrpWn4l 5j2Ke+2DWP1TF6wvGoyoG8Aj8lp1ND+yD0e1PxcBxIukDIqOdMfWG9zyfKHNNpX+jNyIGmDKnig AahQU1T5rEbkefgyyKF3P7W41tHM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHB+bIypikEIEFsyvEvtD9rIm5Ms217cFhrO+3ZXS5mog5gDmz3xQDPzdXiSePk21BIkjd7eO3WLy5sB3jKVjE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6871:460b:b0:261:6c0:8a2a with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2701c3b5905mr10151273fac.20.1723997579162; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 09:12:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <93639364-6937-4EE6-B218-2A02AF212362@gmail.com> <66c3c9fe-da65-443e-b188-c81adf13f73a@gmail.com> <9r15noro-s0n7-r264-qs1r-8psqp6s52oso@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <9r15noro-s0n7-r264-qs1r-8psqp6s52oso@ynat.uz> From: Dave Taht Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 09:12:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Jan Ceuleers , bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004cbf68061ff77720" Subject: Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation... X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 16:13:00 -0000 --0000000000004cbf68061ff77720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the things I like about sitting on top of the libreqos deployment is being able to see the side effects of different ISP bandwidth tiers, and we can now correlate rtt, drops and tcp retransmits somewhat. At 25/10 cake manages most of the bandwidth (beautifully). At 100/20 we see very little ISP drops but do see rtt skyrocket sometimes which is a sure sign to the ISP to suggest a wifi upgrade of some sort to the customer. On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 9:01=E2=80=AFAM David Lang wrote: > Also, the highest wifi speeds are only achievable with build traffic to a > single > client (or with mu-mimo to a small number of clients), it's not that with > n > clients, each gets anywhere close to 1/n bandwith. And if you add a singl= e > slower device to the network, it will eat much more airtime than it's > bandwidth > would indicate. > > David Lang > > On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote: > > > Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 08:47:02 -0700 > > From: Dave Taht via Bloat > > Reply-To: Dave Taht > > To: Jan Ceuleers > > Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation... > > > > Actually I feel that at speeds greater than *50*Mbits, most of the bloa= t > > moves to the wifi, but perhaps I should qualify it more, Modern wifi ca= n > do > > almost 2gbits a few feet from the AP, but still has a dynamic range of > > 5Mbit to 2gbit. Interference, contention, range, all factor into when y= ou > > hit a FIFO "cliff", and stay there. > > > > I wish I knew how many commercial APs outside of eero, cisco meraki, > > gfiber, and starlink have adopted fq_codel. Certainly I am pleased as > punch > > at openwrt's adoption. And seeing at least a few fiber folk shipping > better > > wifi. > > > > Moreso, if only more vendors did a RvRvlatency test like: > > > http://flent-newark.bufferbloat.net/~d/Airtime%20based%20queue%20limit%20= for%20FQ_CoDel%20in%20wireless%20interface.pdf > > > > A hugely mitigating factor is people self adapting to move closer to th= e > AP > > (or mesh), another is most traffic never cracks 20 mbit for very long. > > > > I am sad that every coffee shop I frequent save one, has horrible > > bufferbloat, but it usually only shows up when you try to do s > > videoconference. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM Jan Ceuleers via Bloat < > > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > >> On 18/08/2024 11:08, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote: > >>> In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP > >> links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi." > >>> > >>> I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact. > >>> > >>> Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement > >> that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Man= y > >> thanks. > >> > >> Quite evidently there are WiFi access points and clients available who= se > >> speeds exceed 500 Mbit/s, so in order to be able to make such a claim > >> one would need to know the extent to which those newer WiFi technologi= es > >> are not yet deployed. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Bloat mailing list > >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > >> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --=20 Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11 https://www.eventbrite.com/e/healing-arts-event-tickets-928910826287 Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos --0000000000004cbf68061ff77720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One of the things I like about sitting on top of the libre= qos deployment is being able to see the side effects=C2=A0of different ISP = bandwidth tiers, and we can now correlate rtt, drops and tcp retransmits=C2= =A0somewhat. At 25/10 cake manages most of the bandwidth (beautifully). At = 100/20 we see very little ISP drops but do see rtt skyrocket sometimes whic= h is a sure sign to the ISP to suggest a wifi upgrade of some sort to the c= ustomer.=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 9:01=E2=80=AFAM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
Also, the highest wifi speeds are only achievable with build traff= ic to a single
client (or with mu-mimo to a small number of clients), it's not that wi= th n
clients, each gets anywhere close to 1/n bandwith. And if you add a single =
slower device to the network, it will eat much more airtime than it's b= andwidth
would indicate.

David Lang

On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote:

> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 08:47:02 -0700
> From: Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> To: Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gmail.com>
> Cc: b= loat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> Subject: Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation...
>
> Actually I feel that at speeds greater than *50*Mbits, most of the blo= at
> moves to the wifi, but perhaps I should qualify it more, Modern wifi c= an do
> almost 2gbits a few feet from the AP, but still has a dynamic range of=
> 5Mbit to 2gbit. Interference, contention, range, all factor into when = you
> hit a FIFO "cliff", and stay there.
>
> I wish I knew how many commercial APs outside of eero, cisco meraki, > gfiber, and starlink have adopted fq_codel. Certainly I am pleased as = punch
> at openwrt's adoption. And seeing at least a few fiber folk shippi= ng better
> wifi.
>
> Moreso, if only more vendors did a RvRvlatency test like:
> http://flent-newark.bufferbloat.net/~d/Airtime%20ba= sed%20queue%20limit%20for%20FQ_CoDel%20in%20wireless%20interface.pdf >
> A hugely mitigating factor is people self adapting to move closer to t= he AP
> (or mesh), another is most traffic never cracks 20 mbit for very long.=
>
> I am sad that every coffee shop I frequent save one, has horrible
> bufferbloat, but it=C2=A0 usually only shows up when you try to do s > videoconference.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM Jan Ceuleers via Bloat < > bloat= @lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> On 18/08/2024 11:08, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
>>> In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-= 500mbps ISP
>> links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi."
>>>
>>> I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as = fact.
>>>
>>> Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a st= atement
>> that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts?= Many
>> thanks.
>>
>> Quite evidently there are WiFi access points and clients available= whose
>> speeds exceed 500 Mbit/s, so in order to be able to make such a cl= aim
>> one would need to know the extent to which those newer WiFi techno= logies
>> are not yet deployed.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> B= loat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@list= s.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


--
Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
--0000000000004cbf68061ff77720--