From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ob0-x22c.google.com (mail-ob0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0DBB21F221; Tue, 24 Jun 2014 12:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f172.google.com with SMTP id uy5so891887obc.17 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2014 12:29:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ClBLSruhFmVuZZ/v6nh/P3TA0wflG19Xo6S/NF4E/T8=; b=wsa2D9PdD9oqJ0MU9cmL+GbsGSWpmUnWK71PtFA+rFYTJSOw+RKETQE38m9UMX20sN ZQtYuHuDvKHEpYcPSVg0YnazbLx/O82ciLlOb46/8+ldTRDJCvce2dbtDFQY4BKSE2HU k8aFBKL+VmhU4B019JgoKqkXx5bNHfm5zapfeIx+BkZ0UWUgzJZuwq3s09KccQL0ue72 o6ZMgGZZzOU66EaIQ0u8ZDpgvEamvm33AoYPvhHsWfhYC5QzAWA3Go7y3kj+EDOwbqBk ybBWP6gNHWEl9BBkvcf3xNBSc0y0JR9s4eERBm9SY1NT/rsUV1tLtvjPSdGd6qnrPVK9 +BNQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.145.225 with SMTP id sx1mr2964897oeb.75.1403638174741; Tue, 24 Jun 2014 12:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.48.200 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jun 2014 12:29:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 12:29:34 -0700 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: Rich Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: cerowrt-devel , bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] =?utf-8?q?=5BCerowrt-devel=5D_Dave_T=C3=A4ht_quoted_in_th?= =?utf-8?q?e_ACLU_blog?= X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 19:29:36 -0000 A little out of context. I'd had a string of private convos with robert trying to explain how peering worked before he'd written the wired article, trying to get him to understand aqm and fair queuing also. As for the key misconception in the debate between level3, netflix, and isp= s... What I basically had said was that "the service provider, netflix in this instance, had to pay someone to host their servers, cover the cost of electricity and the cost of a port on big fat ethernet switch, and it didn't matter if they paid a middleman like level3 for the connectivity, OR an ISP that hosted the box on their internal network." It happens to be most cost-effective, if you have enough traffic, to co-locate with the ISP. AND, in most cases, since that's cheaper to the ISP than a middleman, ISPs have traditionally offered rack space for free and the service provider covered the cost of the hardware, the ISP is already getting paid by the customer, and the requirements of the hardware and related capex and maintence costs by the service provider. Now, an argument can be made that the service provider should also pay for the rack space and electricity to the ISP, the same as if they were co-located elsewhere and connected to a middleman, - and in *that case* some regulation in order to ensure a fair market seems necessary. (but it's also a hassle... and later on in this debate, gfiber published their policies for co-locating services like netflix in their datacenters, which made that point more clearly, and explicitly laid out their policies to the possible political detriment of the ISPs making the argument above. http://googlefiberblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/minimizing-buffering.html Still, the points I made about congestion control, aqm and fair queuing weren't made with the ACLU and I suppose I should go over there to make those portions of my points, because the darn fast lane/slow lane analogy is seriously flawed in general. Internet traffic looks nothing like vehicular traffic. On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Rich Brown wrot= e: > See the second paragraph of: > > https://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty/we-want-internet-provide= rs-respond-internet-demand-not-shape-it > > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht NSFW: https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_= indecent.article