From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk0-x236.google.com (mail-qk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBBB93B2A2 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-qk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id q130so24324143qke.1 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:17:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kC9lQrxrRZxqW3G3FXFbBLEVPQY9OJj+9g4cgqy3UfY=; b=rp98oAeQITD9yrnxSDXtZAkZoogHV947muL1/B34asouFSeDwK94KPDu/hLN31k7o6 ZGKoVk5/09/6GyJ8dvU8OQbYVvE0TmYek/hJ203vMVIYbV5dXIoSQ7DffBfwHpWfZ3e9 TV4Y/pdczEA7ww3ezEFx4Srq1qPBsoheSx7sTBcBKAoW4xCTKCaTES/zJZ/zGT0mJjYU 1uTdbpMW62PyG/TSkZNydReuD9iGIYPOC1lggBGpty80DxOIYN09yI7at4eBEat3gEAq Q8AbIbnQs35VLJ7gDUVi9+fLl1/rM6tNGf6zdmbL6GYVAni2Of0qWPlLmijwqoYic0Cg SzDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kC9lQrxrRZxqW3G3FXFbBLEVPQY9OJj+9g4cgqy3UfY=; b=DEPoPXSImWLuoFJdLnMspFEopK+xmLyj/eMmQJuHX92cfq8c+DkiArFK9iPzLHToSk mJ0AaUAWF339WenIsPAYoi8lNY2kap+TiJVkwTg87k7l4pTOK5g/VyiWQHWtdAlXuQFD xwnnbWGxtTzfhi2StHc+jus1aGBa2hd/klcoUOTlBkA0G2xdBY9jCrmCX445sITdOoNO H6EoajOe19IscqUoL6ujomoRV7t2OVvKsecmTuYkYE8hsnoYGdum/8nSYMxdoo+7nAWg aB/6vzvK9hovtgz0qrGXQuQqIbmxLIP9BkEp4RPMKdrDyyqWk1ZRxZoNnhcaGv0Ll4+u JJFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC01gDEdxeep0JKCdVOE0Z/j65+CUhTPgfgj01UEI0tqU8ohK/OtiDBAr35oVgjx1gFo+lyPikxn/3qY66A== X-Received: by 10.55.162.79 with SMTP id l76mr3936130qke.17.1479925077489; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:17:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.137.198 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:17:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <8d72490d-551a-c58f-991a-1750e9af8df9@gmail.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:17:56 -0800 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 18:17:58 -0000 On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 9:54 AM, David Lang wrote: > On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > >> If Comcast sells you 100/20 (I have no idea if this is a thing), you set >> your upstream on this box to 18 meg fq_codel, and then Comcast >> oversubscribes you so you only get 15 meg up part of the time, then you'= re >> still bloated by the modem. This is not a solution. >> >> I don't think "buy $thing, install *WRT on it, configure it like this" i= s >> above most gamers, but I'm afraid we don't even have a working solution = for >> someone with that kind of skillset. > > > perfect is the enemy of good enough I agree that we are getting close to the point where we can recommend several off the shelf products to home and small business users. In addition to the netduma, there's the edgerouters, and the asus-merlin on arm, and turris omnia. There is also ipfire, and pfsense is coming along as well. There are multiple other commercial products whose methods could be benchmarked and evaluated, notably meraki, google wifi, eero, plume, and portal. The latter two i believe are openwrt based. eero is debian. google wifi is it's own thing, not fully buildroot, debian, chromeos, or brillo. There are more than a few others - linksys itself is closely tracking the work nowadays - and in most cases folk are using automated tests to configure things. I'm pretty sure eero has got the qos work working along the edge, and the google folk are well aware of the work and I hope pushing towards deployment on the gfiber and onhub products (the "google wifi" stuff ships dec 7th, don't know a lot about it). Meraki has a fq_codel like solution and airtime fairness being rolled out in beta mode now, I'm told. There's also the longstanding qca streamboost stuff. I have an issue with these latter products in that most are claiming the benefit comes from their cloud based analytics software, rather than better algorithms, and I'm allergic to snoopy stuff on my core network equipment sharing anything about my network activity with a "private" cloud. This is one of the few places where my politics has got in the way of doing better science. Google has been good with their privacy policy and has learned much from insights into home networks, as no doubt eero has, but I've never been in a position where ethically I could deal with this in our projects (nor, if I did, could I cope with the potential liability). I have been grateful for what bits of data google was willing to publish. I would love to see a barracuda ship something for small to medium business, or something of that caliber from a cisco > stop trying for perfection, you will never be able to address all problem= s. > > But we already have several options that would address the very real > problems people are having if they could just be deployed. > > you don't even need to use cake and worry about what your uplink bandwidt= h > is if you can just use fq_codel on the real edge device. The fact that it= is > almost impossible to buy a router that has a DSL interface on it, so you > have to try to artificially move the bottleneck is a problem. I do regard the total lack of one bql-enabled dsl device firmware as a real market disappointment. Similarly, a lack of transparency into whatever is shipping in multiple big ISP's gear - notably the FIOS folk are very good about the GPL side of their stuff, but it's never been clear that they've been paying attention - at least one FIOS device I tested had sfq on outbound by default. I have spent a bit of time on an upcoming cablemodem product that I can't talk about but I am presently very frustrated with how it abuses linux's network stack. > > Deploy what we already know to work on the real edge devices and things g= et > vastly simpler. > > David Lang > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! http://blog.cerowrt.org