From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C7F63B2A4; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 06:14:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id s81so7175202qke.13; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 03:14:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+irNyEm/1TiuVZeQYFTeTFoX00TWM9rTqZ6IussL6KQ=; b=HSsgDqxoKS/CObhpHOKLEPeZUadOO/TbDG4/hhJAa0qMQhPhUCZ1+KGvDCh30VMxRN hajkWCk5EK0wiHcKcZp/ozsWSXMbQrLsCfUpZi6tcxdmUAEQqzM6T7/E9fL2cpGA5Bk5 TEk6AneLjunLj2rK6jGMTtCb5A3Wp4aoyxKGe8tORDkldatagQ2mRe1h2Szw+wzvT3JS So9ix6Es++BeAZxbeU+tFvxYFW04DqOZYikXxEIG42Tbx1cCttk6AfuzPYlv8yRB2ZdG kVHlZc5VhCigSg67hvx9BYUI3VBfCz7jQpH8E7VJH5pMq+bCNU5hvSXVrMXzUTublGKp axhw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+irNyEm/1TiuVZeQYFTeTFoX00TWM9rTqZ6IussL6KQ=; b=iy13nbu6IrIFthZ7RS5FBPYozu+9QuYBA42Npc7b4y7B0xHZumvBJyNqoSoSR/lIP/ 34vzJ1jmMM3l3JRfNNbuTgS9s+sE+BrWw/GIqspS39dYI6sFLIn0iDGNxejrLUb8501N f5vOOAMiewNpBF2aO7lhOy1FV3MY21CG/fIjwrEW2mW6Y3fqavJe8WrnCtc2W2li+YzS LqmR3ao2QtRsSDnCJer1amEHq3eWbFHBIzbbqWZ0qEsBLp+bCkLhlGH7ZLERe+uTdX0H u0WcWRO0qdlkFHcdCagIJ2jNi+VgEDD8O82xcK8ICmibL2buwqKa/M8Q1XNBXQnU9X4J zyMg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUb8h44tsULh2OyRtU58qrlBJgeCQgDZeES6F9RQ7DAP4Hck3vS XGtiLgiLXSVZu1CG9GaI8FEeJmLR5kIZLyhB66yxOB34TUr5nw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzL0Ne2bEjnekY+UGOGHxMYq+4Zu/9+T7e4OgQ/ZHL2keJEn3+SMoJ7fOkoSHmFdY4CfgkjUT1Sp+4AscNrO+Q= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1424:: with SMTP id k4mr22789612qkj.17.1553595277062; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 03:14:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190325155548.GQ4211@localhost> <20190325171017.34F19201078CF7@ary.local> <20190325180148.GS4211@localhost> <33c84891-2040-2097-e304-3bbce885c093@earthlink.net> <2c05001c-e8e3-0beb-567a-b56293ef2a2b@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 03:14:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: ECN-Sane , bloat , cerowrt-devel Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Bloat] Fwd: voting rights in general X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 10:14:38 -0000 This has been an ongoing discussion on the ietf mailing list, spiraling down into useless discussion, once again. I'd kicked it off with: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/2mjhGErGYRWjKb0oZH_Ddh4YI0Y (Something like 7% of the people doing ietf work currently get a vote for top management, due to the "must attend" requirement.) there is a related discussion on the same list, about fixing the recall pro= cess. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 2:56 AM Subject: Re: voting rights in general To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Stan Kalisch , IETF Discussion Mailing List On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 3:43 PM Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > On 26-Mar-19 10:13, Stan Kalisch wrote: > > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, at 5:00 PM, Keith Moore wrote: > >> Different people have different ideas about what "unpleasant" means. > > > > They do, but what is significant is the common, shared subset of those = ideas within a community. That subset alone can significantly determine wh= o is part of a community, and who is not. > > That's true. And as we have seen more people from non-Anglo-Saxon and the= n non-European cultures participate, the meaning of "unpleasant" has contin= ued to change, and probably to fragment. I had the good fortune to start my= professional life in the particle physics community, where being brutally = frank about a colleague's technical errors was normal, so the traditional I= ETF culture was no surprise to me. But I have often seen it (by body langua= ge) to be an unpleasant shock to new participants. Some people get used to = it, but some don't. So while I've known Keith long enough to simply say "Yo= u're wrong, Keith" and be sure he wouldn't take it as an insult, I hope I w= ould always be more careful with a new participant until I know them better= . (For clarity, in this case, Keith's not wrong.) > > There's a reason the ITU and ISO tend to use very diplomatic language and= very formal procedures. I'm not saying we should do that, but it isn't OK = to just ignore the issue of different cultural expectations. In my life, I have been very empowered by the idea of clear, and frank discussions. The oft-brutal game of "Dealer", at Xerox PARC, the only mandatory meeting, where the participants were encouraged to go at each other with every form of technical criticism - and then go have a beer - made for good code. Also, I have found "kelly johnson's rules" to be very effective. Notably, in ietf context: "The designers of the airplane should be on the shop floor while the first ones are built." What george carlin damns as "soft language" in (NSFW) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Do25I2fzFGoY infests the ietf today. In order to be successfully implemented, a specification MUST be short, clear, and unambigious. "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman > Brian > -- Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740 --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740