From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ob0-x22a.google.com (mail-ob0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87C7521F280 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2015 10:03:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ob0-f170.google.com with SMTP id va2so5576854obc.1 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2015 10:03:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QrxeDkuasVbW615FNtA/bFcrDrqi5DWerHSErvIQf9o=; b=WOoLwDE05OGA1+ioIOu/OOtWxbqEQVP08BtlEHCV1Egyj74vm4aSoH8hH5WKNYWfMM cIZRRJQRMCRJEV9K199Hju7OwN5ymRJFMlbgZIJOcRh9R1PxoOrxyxajBZEE0fQcI6gj N6t4GA8uSiFJtld5TgAoKz3LhOSmH/pdO5tHpk0zEykTQ/JS7Ej1Wx0eJc0pIAUEoF/a W1u3wbJYUho5Q5c96v7oWyDauPAQyr/QoqdkP0ZGbRblz+wgJnXo+jS1NZytlQohOo5G W1wgQEFRvLCL6VtS/CAjrGofg1JmZXMj2BHpJ/8nISgMdprbLgyTToG+ANnBCr86+du+ zW9w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.144.136 with SMTP id sm8mr3064711obb.63.1424887430599; Wed, 25 Feb 2015 10:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.202.51.66 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Feb 2015 10:03:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201502251728.t1PHSf66016319@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> References: <201502250806.t1P86o5N011632@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> <201502251728.t1PHSf66016319@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 10:03:50 -0800 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: Bob Briscoe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Alex Elsayed , bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] RED against bufferbloat X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 18:04:19 -0000 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Bob Briscoe wrote: > Alex, > > At 09:31 25/02/2015, Alex Elsayed wrote: >> >> It was less a criticism of your work itself, and more pointing out that >> Bob >> Briscoe was applying research on symmetric paths to asymmetric paths >> without >> questioning the applicability of its conclusions. > > > Mea culpa. > Just one ambiguous inference and the whole list explodes! > > When I said "The paper convinced me that ARED is good enough (in the pape= r's > simulations it was often better than PIE or CoDel)," > > I didn't mean 'good enough to go ahead and deploy'. Don't worry we're > testing out ARED. I meant good enough to make it the centre of my attenti= on. > (I did say "consider deploying" later in the sentence). > > Our ARED testing is focusing on whether there are any pathologies, rather > than whether it is slightly better or worse than the perfect solution X t= hat > will takes a decade to make any difference to the majority. > > It's interesting that no-one picked up on the sentence "This could reduce > deployment completion time from decades to a few months." > I take that as a symptom that the bufferbloat list is mainly populated by > implementers. If there's a nail that can't be hit with the implementation > hammer, it seems it's not an interesting nail, even if it's an extremely > important nail. I have ALWAYS said that if you can figure out how to deploy a red based solution, do so, and PLEASE share you you do it. Yes, if tools were generally available to get it right, for those that do have RED, you can fix the problem in months... That said, all the new high end 802.11ac home routers have way better qos systems, (though two I have tested recently were very buggy) and it is all over openwrt and derivatives, in all of linux, all over the world, and the only real problem remaining to fix it on CPE is to get rate management into more hardware offload engines. Which is happening. Sure, I would like to see the CMTSes and BRASes fixed so customers did not have to do it themselves and more default-as-shipped cpe the isp do the right things - but enormous progress has been made. It is time to go fix wifi, IMHO, and let the market sort out the ISP edge. > > Bob > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe, BT > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht Let's make wifi fast, less jittery and reliable again! https://plus.google.com/u/0/107942175615993706558/posts/TVX3o84jjmb