From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF6483CB39; Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-5ca1b4809b5so1809974a12.3; Thu, 28 Dec 2023 05:38:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1703770686; x=1704375486; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=TKZk89IB5xw3c7Sbd3xlcGfFe0K0ZmtQeSAXK+v4xiA=; b=WCrThoKAwe0q4+bkV76Eq3tNXs4Yu9t5PJj2t9ShFNax69vgXZ25ZJ95K+jBEHLScd z+LHqES9h27D/O2fWViFf/Xhxgm5NeAEphUIWAMqbCBFPb4m9s09QUAtTL0tomUiXmiZ +CAZrAUveC2onhSbmoKgeVCFMnBA9rgpG8CYUGaYBGJTZnTypF8CssnSMC/8xQdXV92+ BrAeZBtuGhnuFe9ksxqd3zltNGNozFZeDVUjzXo0OmoB96gVFk291WVENAxU6ksqDA/W bZs+YBGXNQWVM/6/nXpCMblWwIkkZ7cbooNAM50w5iVyFijDBeyloos642FaBi6GWxPs VLxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1703770686; x=1704375486; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=TKZk89IB5xw3c7Sbd3xlcGfFe0K0ZmtQeSAXK+v4xiA=; b=Kz6OoFYP0s4AFlk0LwYsR9E656vtFzRqdZhxbAWM78Jqf0gzyaIQ6JaV7jVNjWPFTL udQEJJoyZadLMG9xvOykdtR+WtNuS8xm0SfcxB3XECd3Tj98+676j5oGw+Dio7FlDH47 0DGjXWiFhMhnSGhRtDDe9wLQBGi4biuAjzUOZp1i4pesKQmI5d41AhApPXr3qwcTYUzA LazHLJ79pz1PEqXU0NHQxaRJ3hVs4yZ3RNRImeZ+Ru/PrMJ/ovP04IvkZJbOdkEOR11a CcRMHfl4c5mw8y86c8hOdWSprfiyRtpv5xD7SLx6hGqPwm4q5079kj0C2AGz+iWt0ufV 4b8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxQVreLOQlyeSbLT+oaxLmg764AbyaEZO7Akr+y7Vs4MSKvIGEQ 4xA5MahOp+Yn/K2LicCAt/1j8JqkVvjK34a2pjk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFkJUPcaCs3ekADZSpOc3PySOXIYd2823I7CQ0I1/nXlhctmTXY2LXFCpQGaUI0ZHw1CntdHDBi0EStS0Ji8fY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:1aaf:b0:194:f2af:7f2f with SMTP id ci47-20020a056a201aaf00b00194f2af7f2fmr4322299pzb.35.1703770685681; Thu, 28 Dec 2023 05:38:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:37:54 -0500 Message-ID: To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: Dave Taht via Bloat , codel , linganglee@126.com, lizhijun.hit@gmail.com, chen.yongrui@163.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Bloat] slow start improvement X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 13:38:07 -0000 In general my hope for the bufferbloat email list is to close the loop between industry, open source, and academia. Academic authors (now cc=C2=B4d) have a tendency to not publish sources (?), and as the wait from test to publication is so long, move onto other things, even if it is a promising technique that could use further development and eyeballs. Me, I wanted to know what wifi they tested for this, and do strongly feel that slow start in the field is presently much larger than widely recognised in academia coming from various cdns. On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 5:17=E2=80=AFAM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > > What I am missing in this and similar papres are tests what happens if th= e proposed scheme is actually used quantitatively over the internet... > The inherent idea seems to be if one would know the available capacity on= e could 'jump' the cwnd immediately to that window... (ignoring the fact th= e rwnd typically takes a while to increase accordingly*). My gut feeling te= lls me this will make dynamics at bottleneck queues even more volatile, not= sure whether that will result in an overall better outcome. > te > Sidenote: this is again a packet pair method with a side helping of "dela= y" increase measurements (inside the driver stack, so conceptually related = to BQL/AQL) so the challenges are all the same. > > > *) Finally, the rwnd selection module is used to determine whether the va= lue of receiver window (rwnd) embedded in the ACK packet should be ignored,= according to the judgement whether it reveals the exhaustion of the receiv= er=E2=80=99s buffer, thus to remove the restriction of rwnd on slow start a= cceleration. > Erm, I think this paper should have been rejected on this argument alone.= .. this is exactly the mind set (I know better then my communication partne= r) that results in a non- or sub-optimally working internet... I wish that = those that do not appreciate slow-start would leave their fingers off it. > Not saying that slow-start is perfect, but if you ignore the components t= hat make slow-start effective your replacement likely will not cut it. The = fact that slow-strat gradually ramps up the cwin (and pretty aggressively) = is one of its features and not a bug, as the alternative of jumping directl= y to the appropriate capacity for each flow requires an oracle... so a "per= fect" solution is clearly out of reach and all we are talking about is diff= erent shades of "good enough" (and to repeat myself, whether a solution is = good enough does not solely depend on whether the solution if implemented a= t a single end-node delivers "better" numbers for that end-node but also on= its effect on the rest of the network).** > > **) I occasionally wish for a tit-for-tat scheduler that is generous at f= irst but will "retaliate" if a flow abuses that generosity... > > > > > > On 28 December 2023 04:50:59 CET, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote: >> >> I am very happy to be seeing various advances in slow start techniques. >> >> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Li-Lingang-2/publication/372708933_= Small_Chunks_can_Talk_Fast_Bandwidth_Estimation_without_Filling_up_the_Bott= leneck_Link/links/64d1a210806a9e4e5cf75162/Small-Chunks-can-Talk-Fast-Bandw= idth-Estimation-without-Filling-up-the-Bottleneck-Link.pdf >> >> --=20 40 years of net history, a couple songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD9RGX6QFm5E Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos