From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70F9A3B2A4 for ; Wed, 12 May 2021 12:40:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id z1so12839619ils.0 for ; Wed, 12 May 2021 09:40:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qK/zv/1oEdDB7XuOqxdeDz/ME8HQRbI+V/rqm2W8t14=; b=O+NGp2+eJHp4Z62KZDZ+jieblsu7Tqy8h5a3NdJ62k82auEsZEMN+dgw7GPTHg10zW AHgR9VkOQYz0idvs0qOaBgosjgis6pP7ZCsB9F5t3Q9YfmTsdnxGts4q0y8rKs+PL1ic bTxecfRYJlSU+gFA1i0hkqyXbxrkIa3pBcG4rxKAz5PhpFhq5MdAlc8LdRiSikG0b1FW oXzx/W8cTh6RodDoEnFzGN20dCPP+ddilXQehamxEdM0f8mJS5JZvgYUOyB2dsJPYXKJ Jh7algc9DuvTUqE4Qw0W88NX06O11uTMy1+yUEiJTyuJiwzg9jjkJp4mOH4utHHOu5zM e3TQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qK/zv/1oEdDB7XuOqxdeDz/ME8HQRbI+V/rqm2W8t14=; b=M7tIQiodErM3tfbsP2BJQVjlyb+mHtW68SqevcdEq5ZnDbbxCjavLlkdsGQ3OkjSy8 f14aQqi3e6bJuB/LlqiDgR5xIyP19D+ssBljkz00RGliqEZexTn4P40a8ZAfxdWDYE9O cd8i0Qv5L//ut5LeDuBpZU3DkVue/0I+ry77gHpuR4N8aewgeP1jy0zKT5Yuz19ME9NY 4VY67XKL3kOQPFLYzCYW7J/efl3c6jZtlm/kO9x2kpCRe7xDQvqzfA8t8HWvwJXFS2kc zayKkRvYa4xjr+Wx5S4OqVzYlky4N88+8pVpSNUH4UzPj5/BLF6w+0Y9t3lXoLLHj8IC ARww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533npLyRhIGaP3Ng2mJ2Xxu13l0c/JgYLPle8+1M+Q+GgNXHFYhN tHpUKlYnOkqLxjHPZa/xkmp2iiqrer8oY9yOPJg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzynVPgHMXnJ8sbPba61m637A/KXj9w2x4K34syJv4H1zAb/e1bjx2/mwcQQFOMipZW4VHRm0ujz+NgRoRzbjc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:d41:: with SMTP id h1mr30842116ilj.0.1620837657812; Wed, 12 May 2021 09:40:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <666B8455-7B26-4E89-A7F2-0279B4D67FCB@cable.comcast.com> <13254.1620835357@localhost> In-Reply-To: <13254.1620835357@localhost> From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 09:40:46 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , Greg White , Jonathan Foulkes , bloat , Bob McMahon Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Bloat] [EXTERNAL] Re: Terminology for Laypeople X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 16:40:58 -0000 On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 9:02 AM Michael Richardson wrote= : > > The part I'd like to simplify is "latency".... > Most people can understand that the hot water tap doesn't produce hot wat= er > instantly, but I don't know how leverage that experience to networking di= rectly. > Idle and Working are good. The demo I did in my broadcom preso ages back was the simplest I could imag= ine, but not on the slides. ( http://www.taht.net/~d/broadcom_aug9_2018.pdf ) I brought a coffee pot, a large carafe, two differently sized funnels, an eye dropper, (and a towel!) and showed how sending more data at the sender didn't change the receiving rate, and how a human, at least, reacted to tail "packet loss" by slowing down. It strikes me that this demo is amiable to doing via videoconference. Perhaps something that floats could be used to represent voip, like a dried pea. Being a perfectionist, I've not liked that this demo does not also represent what happens when the upstream link is clogged, but perhaps with some video trickery... (there's videoconferencing filters for inverting the video), and intensely dislike that it doesn't at all cover how RTT on every packet is the driver but but that would require a water fountain as per VJ's big demo at IETF 84. We'd done a lot of more complicated vids than this (my modena talk, shemminger's linux plumbers talk) trying to then explain aqm and fq, but it seems like this mere starting point would be a useful visual aid nowadays for laypeople. https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse550/14au/papers/CSE550.congavo= id.pdf for engineers. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh netwo= rks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architec= t [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails= [ > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --=20 Latest Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC